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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • you are being completely unbiased when you say that there isn't a clique. There are many. Saying that's it's one big happy meritocracy is like saying the US is one big happy democracy.

    • by gnat (29) on 2002.01.03 16:31 (#2644) Journal
      Can you name some? I agree that in 1999 it seemed a pretty hostile environment, but I feel like we've really made great strides in opening up since then.

      If there are cliques, they're still relatively easy to get into. It seems to me that it's a damn sight easier to make your way into the upper echelons of Perl than in any business of the same size.

      And while a CEO-sized paycheck of respect won't pay the bills, it can make your 9-5 grind a little more bearable. Mr Jark doesn't get paid for his hard work on Perl, but we respect him greatly for it. He's a big fish in this pond, and it must be vaguely comforting to know that even when things get unpleasant at work, there are thousands of people who appreciate and applaud his Perl work because he does a great job at it.

      Ugh, I hope I'm not sounding like ESR here :-)


      • Elaine's right, at least in the realm wider than p5p or perl6-internals. (And with p5p it's only since things got less contentious) It is far from a meritocracy once you hit the newsgroups (Hi, Gojira!), some of the mongers meetings, or some of the subject-specific perl mailing lists. It's less bad in person than in email or news, but the issues are often still there.

        Yes, some of the Exalted Inner Realms are a lot easier to get into on sheer merit than they used to be, but there's more to perl than those.

        • Indeed. It has nothing to do with how many people name their children after Jarkko or how they gush over the amount of time he spends on perl...rather a general observation of human behaviour in a lot of different places. It's not unique to Perl but I just wanted to make the point that it would be a mistake to think that somehow the people of perl have managed to transcend earthly human behavioural patterns. It's not always a bad thing but they do exist. Being female in a 98% male crowd may also give me a

          • You still haven't actually named any specific cliques. But I take what I assume is your point that there are buttheads and bigots in Perl. I don't think I was saying there aren't buttheads and bigots, or that the Perl world is perfect, only that I'm amazed that it's been possible for me to do what I've done, and that it's still possible for others to do the same and better. It feels so much more conquerable than the "real world".

            As for your technical contributions ... you're just a sysadmin, right? :-)

            • Is the irony of mentioning "perlcabal" while trying to prove there aren't any cliques intentional? :)
            • I believe we met when you were the ass grabber mr. torkington :) Gone are those days replaced by the prim image of pious family man *sigh*

              And, no worries, I am a decidedly cheap and goofy drunk but it does seem to get far more press than it deserves. We usually see only what we want to see or hear only what we want to hear so I made the example personal since I am no more immune to that than anyone else and it was the most fresh on the stack. It has less to do with affection rather how we interact without

              • In some sense I think I agree, in that while a meritocracy is great, it is also unfortunate when people introduce each other by exchanging CVs instead of shaking hands. Sometimes "what have you done for us lately?" is as bad as "we don't know you so you can't do anything for us."

                A nice thing about #perl is that while you are respected for what you do, you are also respected for who you are. You can hang out and do nothing, or almost nothing, for "the Perl community" but still be respected by many, just
        • Odd. Pretty much all the Perl places I'm privy to are meritocracies these days, including p5p, macperl lists, use Perl,, #perl, etc. Ah well, something for the other groups to shoot for. ;-)
      • Nat, it's a beautiful community. I've never found anything but acceptable, although it was an honest acceptance that told me when I was passing bad ideas.

        My first brush with the Perl culture was reading the files in the Perl distribution. Seriously. That documentation was magnetic; it made me want to get out there and contribute. And even though I haven't done much (yet), what little I've done has never made me feel there was a clique that didn't want me.

        Heck, I jotted off a message to Larry Wall one

        J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
        • acceptance, not acceptable.

          always click preview, not submit.

          J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers