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NOTE: use Perl; is on undef hiatus. You can read content, but you can't post it. More info will be forthcoming forthcomingly.

All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • First point:

    You don't like Perl 6.

    You did not involve yourself in that project.

    You don't like what others have done.

    You have some weird ideas on how community projects work: you think that there's a cabal that controls the project. Well, you may call it a cabal, but anyone can join. You just have to write some idea in the mailing lists, or talk on the IRC channels, or submit a patch to the code or the documentation.

    If you have an interest in the outcome of the project, you don't ignore it for 12 years and t
    • Shane may be entitled to rejecting my comments, but he is definitely not entitled to editing them. It may be his blog, but it's my content - and my ideas. Misrepresenting my ideas on purpose is a violent act.

      I can tell you are confused. You are asking all the wrong questions. The real question is: why did we let this bunch of crazy people drive perl directly to the garbage? You don't care that it's become a joke? Interesting.

      You, as member of the perl community, are also responsible for it. Take some responsibility and think about changing it, instead of following the herd - it's these guys who (whether you like it or not) are the perl intelligentsia and control the outcome of all this.

      • In your original blog post, you said that chromatic had not approved your posts.

        In your comment above, you say he edited them.

        You also said you wanted a coherent conversation. It sounds like, right now, you're really upset and are having problems putting one together.

        If you have a beef with him, why not put together a clear, well-written post with what he did, with links to the topics.

        If, on the other hand, you're just mad and want to get even for him not approving your posts, I think you should chill. No

        • Shane has actually done both - rejecting and editing. Interesting how you didn't reply to any of my other comments.

          As for chilling - you only want me to "chill" (I am in no way upset about this issue) because what I'm saying is somehow insulting to you -- and this is the case only because you still believe the perl mythos - speed is not important, Conway is a great programmer, Wall is smart and a linguist thus perl is awesome, Perl looks like English, Perl 6 "will be done when it's done", Perl is awesome a

        • I believe there also seems to be a larger issue: Perl developers in general are not used to discussion. We are not used to having someone question our community leaders; we are not used to discussion - we are used to incoherent "state of the onion" addresses and absolutely no accountability.

          So, I understand that my comments might come as a shock, but believe me, these guys have been making a mess with what used to be a vibrant community - because we didn't follow them more closely. And every time things se

      • Misrepresenting my ideas on purpose is a violent act

        Bullshit. You are insulting every victim of true violence, ever.

        Why not go all the way and call it rape? chromatic raped you just as much as he was violent to you.

        --
        J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
        • Bullshit. You are insulting every victim of true violence, ever.

          Hah. This is probably the funniest comment I've read in a long, long time. Thanks for it, you lightened up my morning.

          On a more serious note - go rape yourself :D Like Divine in Female Trouble.

        • Why do I think your comment is so funny? It's self-defeating. You accuse my original post of insulting true victims of violence, hence rendering it invalid. But in the same post you introduce rape, making the exact same mistake yourself! If you follow your logic, your post insults true victims of rape. This puts your comment in a funny situation:

          If it is valid, then what it says about my post is also valid about yours, hence rendering your comment invalid.

          If it isn't valid, then it can be safely ignored.

          • Our Perl community leaders have failed us, and it’s up to us to grab the bull by its horns.

            Why don’t you? Put forth a credible proposal and people will follow.

            Go ahead.

            • Why don't you? Put forth a credible proposal and people will follow.

              I will start a programming language eventually; have a few important clients to keep happy at the moment, but I've promised myself I'd do it.

              I will not put forth a proposal for the Perl community, though - they are oblivious to anything that doesn't fit their preconceptions - such as my "preposterous idea" that the number of operators in Perl 6 (and IMHO perl 5 too, but primarily Perl 6) should be minimised. Making Perl 6 for mortals is n

              • Sounds to me like the community and the leaders fit together fine… for good or for ill. All that puzzles me is why you’d care to continue to rail against it to no apparent end (since if that is how the community is, and that is how the leaders are, and the two fit together – then you aren’t going to effect any change).

                • Sounds to me like the community and the leaders fit together fine

                  s/the community/what remains of the community/

                  All that puzzles me is why you'd care to continue to rail against it to no apparent end

                  Contrarianism, basically - someone has to do it. It usually keeps communities honest - although crying over how much of a troll a particular contrarian is. See Christopher Hitchens, for instance.

                  • Contrarianism, basically - someone has to do it.

                    So you're doing it for the good of the community. How kind of you.

                    Is there something we can do to donate this kindness to another community?

                    --

                    --
                    xoa

                    • Is there something we can do to donate this kindness to another community?

                      Why exactly does it bother you? Are you afraid I might be right in something? If I'm just a lone nut, what difference does it make what I post?

            • Put forth a credible proposal and people will follow.

              Did you mean "Do something worth following"?

              • Not necessarily. I don’t think you have to be able to do better than whoever they’re criticising in order for your criticism to be valid. I was getting at the fact that talk about how someone should do something is insubstantial. There needs to be an actual exposition of something better, or at the very least an analytical explanation of exactly what is bad about something, taking second- and further-order effects into account – something, anything, that’s constructive on some level

          • ...making the exact same mistake yourself!

            Umm, except Aristotle made the exact same mistake (actually, an even "bigger" mistake) on purpose. If you missed that, there's really no point in further discussion.

            • s/Aristotle/jdavidb/
            • That makes no difference, on purpose or not. The point is "denigrating serious matters", not "it was on purpose or not."

              Wake up, don't allow lwall and friends to lie to you - these guys have been playing us since ~2000... it takes a really big effort to ignore the lack of proper multithreading in perl, its speed or its fugly semantics. And it is an issue. You can continue to ignore it at the peril of your own career.

              • That makes no difference, on purpose or not. The point is "denigrating serious matters"...

                That is the difference, that you were "denegrating", and jdavidb was using hyperbole to give an exaggerated example of the same thing.

                ...ignore the lack of proper multithreading ...

                Did I mention multithreading? Or whether or not I've been ignoring it? .oO(Where's the *plonk* button?)

                • That is the difference, that you were "denegrating", and jdavidb was using hyperbole to give an exaggerated example of the same thing.

                  Why? You can either use it or not at all - the context makes no difference. Otherwise, who decides when it can be used? You?

                  Did I mention multithreading? Or whether or not I've been ignoring it? .oO(Where's the *plonk* button?)

                  No, I'm just making a comment on one of the many issues related to how Perl is stagnated. Interesting that you chose to ignore it instead of gi

            • Yep. The canary died; abandon the coal mine.

              --
              J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
          • Think about it, kid. Our Perl community leaders have failed us

            That's funny; I don't remember voting for them.

            --
            J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
            • That's funny; I don't remember voting for them.

              That's what happens with so-called "benevolent" dictatorships.

              • Let me rephrase it: That's funny, I don't remember them dictating anything to me.

                --
                J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
              • Never mind. You have missed every point of subtlety I've ever tried to make, so let me say it straight out: I can follow any leaders I please and ignore any leaders I want to. Your "our Perl community leaders have failed us" comment makes absolutely no sense to me. You and I share exactly zero leaders.

                What you have is some people you want to follow, and they don't want to lead you, and apparently this isn't getting through your head. They are going to Georgia, and you want to go to Massachusetts, and yo

                --
                J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers