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  • Pudge you don't know what you are talking about.
    Megret is a bona fide neo-nazi. His ideas are abject and should be fought relentlessly. And yes they make him a slimy bastard. And yes I hate him.
    These people do not participate in Democracy, they just spread hatred and madness.
    BTW there were anti-national front demonstrations every day for 2 weeks in every major city in France, more than a million people marched on May 1rst, and there were virtually no incidents, contrary to what happen a few years ago when n
    • Whatever his ideas are, are not the issue. Whether or not he wishes a free exchange of ideas, is not the issue. Granted, his ideas suck, and would go against everything France is supposed to stand for. So? Do you not trust the people to see that and vote accordingly? If not, what are you doing bothering with democracy for?

      And I am not saying there shouldn't be protests, demonstrations, or marches. I am saying that people don't have to get hysterical. I am saying that people don't have to get violent
      • My point is that megret's quote should be put in context: it comes from a neo-nazi, after 2 weeks of incredibly pacific demonstrations in the street against what he represents. There were no calls for violence against the national front in France, just calls for people to vote. Hence what he says is just not true. What happened in The Netherlands has no relation to the French situation. This is just the usual rethoric of a paranoid mind that likes to appear as a victim and is quick to use any opportunity to do so.

        And I never condone the use of violence in politics.

        Is that enough? ;--)

        As for democracy and the French neo-nazi:

        I have seen what democratically elected people can do when they base their power on hate and pitting communities against each other: Milosevic was elected at the head of Yougoslavia. And people who had lived side by side peacefully for ages started killing each other (or, to be more accurate, some serbs started killing muslims). The problem is that the World is increasingly complex and that more and more people just can't understand it any more. So they look for simple answers, like "if we kick the immigrants out everything will be OK", or just "politicians suck". This makes it very difficult to argue against, as neo-nais typically disregard facts and base everything on their twisted vision of the World. The real answers to problems like crime or economic crisis are complex and are hard to explain while someone is yelling "send the Arabs home and there will be no more crime and no more unemployement!" at voters. Hate is dangerous, and hate-mongers must be fought, but that's not easy.

        le pen? He is and has always been a nazi: he tortured people in Algeria (and brags about it), owned a publishing house specialized in German war songs and books that denied the Holocaust, got rich by inheriting a whole lotta money from a senile guy who changed his will just before dying, was sentenced to probation for punching a socialist candidate (a woman) during a campaign, said that the holocaust was a detail in WWII, made a pun on national radio on a politician that included the French for gas chamber in his name... there's probably more...

        • I didn't mean specifically that the French people in general, or the demonstrators in general, or you in particular, wanted or called for violence. However, I do agree with him that "hysterical" positions do often lead to violence (note that I took that in my original post and generalized it so as to not make it specific to any group), and this is what I am decrying. People were basically going nuts over the viewpoints of this man, hating him, and being filled with vitriol toward him and his party. That'
          • Actually the anti-le pen demonstrations before the second round of the elections were quite interesting: the right kinda laid low, some of its leaders even said that they thought the demonstrations were counter-productive, making le pen look like a victim. The left embraced the demonstrations but did not overplay its hand. It was mostly people demonstrating as individuals.
            The demonstrations were of course about beating le pen but also about being proud to be French, about apologizing for the stupidity of so
          • Hate is dangerous, and should not be fought with more hate. I realize that Le Pen is an evil rat bastard Nazi. But I believe that it has only short-term benefit, if that, to hating him, defeating him and his ideas with hate, to attempting to incite vitriol for him and his party.

            Did I miss some news? As I understood it, Le Pen did unexpectedly well in the initial balloting because there were a slew of candidates to split the left. He beat the PM, whom people had assumed was a shoo-in for the runoff, beca
            • Regardless, I thought I had made it perfectly clear several times -- apparently not? -- that I am talking about the overall feeling that I get, not anything in particular done by the French people. The demonstrations were good. I was very pleased to see people come out in force to speak and vote against Le Pen's candidacy. Perhaps the lack of provided context or example confused my intention: whether it is Mir saying he hates Le Pen, or other people I've seen expressing extreme hatred and vitrol toward h
              • I agree with you on a number of points here (and elsewhere), but I think there are a number of nuances to be made.

                To begin with, keep in mind that in Europe the WWII trauma is still very much alive. Even a young guy like me (25) knows first hand accounts from the war. My family is not part of any minority that was specifically targetted by nazism, but nevertheless many of my family members were killed or tortured by the nazis. My grandparents and my great-grandparents were part of the first wave of


                -- Robin Berjon []

                • No, I did not distinguish between hatred and anger, but I do think I see the difference, and I do think I've seen a lot of the hatred I've mentioned. And I agree with you: I won't weep for "Nazis" who are killed. What I weep for is what that assassination means, what effects it will have on everyone else, how it will shape society. It won't be positive.

                  And that's the second time this week, in two completely different contexts, that I've been called a postmodernist. Hmmm. ;-) Regardless, I just saw the
              • I felt literally sick going out this morning and knowing that 1 personne out 8 I would see in the street voted for a fascist ... amongst which most likely half of the people I buy my bread, groceries, etc...

                Well, that attitude, which I've seen a lot in recent weeks, sickens me. It is closed-minded, it is not representative of properly working democracy, it is not a love of freedom of ideas. It is villification of people who may have different ideas. It is hatred.

                It's not hatred, it's just that I fel

                • I don't feel hate for le pen voters, I feel sorry, I feel they are dumb and I feel they are beyond reasoning: I don't feel like talking nice to them and trying to convince them they were wrong. Basically I just don't want to live in the same country as them.

                  Maybe that's hate, maybe it isn't. I don't know. But in my view, it's unhealthy for society, as per what I wrote about how we need to get along with people who think differently than we do.
                  • we need to get along with people who think differently than we do.

                    I have no problem getting along with people who actually think. Too bad this does not include people who voted for le pen.

                    OK, that was a joke. And I'll stop here. I think our difference boils down to the fact that you always want to convince people of your ideas, or at least discuss them (then convince them ;--), while I really prefer to live and let live. The result is that when something like neo-nazi vote comes along you are still re

                    • Actually, no, I don't want to convince people of my ideas. I spent some significant time describing that in my lengthy post of last night. I don't even need to discuss it with them, if they are unwilling or unable. I do prefer to live and let live, if that is what it comes down to. You don't appear to want to live and let live, though, you seem to prefer to want to live and let live "away from me." That's not what I think of as "live and let live."

                      Aside from the fact that you don't know the reasons wh
              • Maybe I am especially sensitive to this because in the US, I am villified because I want to end federal welfare, make abortion illegal, increase military spending, etc. Many people think I am evil scum for my beliefs, and it is sickening. Most of these people purport to love diversity and different ideas, but they lie.

                Welcome to the club, pudge! :)

                They hate what is different, and it is disgusting to me. The rare person I meet who completely disagrees with me but still respects me and accepts that I

                J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
            • It's no more than Pat Buchanan would have had to take if he ever found himself in a similar position.

              I think Buchanan advocates closed borders and protective tarrifs, but I don't think he advocates racism like Le Pen. If my understanding is correct, then I would hope Buchanan wouldn't face what Le Pen did if he were in a runoff.

              J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers