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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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Perl6 site...really...I give up 21 Comments More | Login | Reply /

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  • The source code for the site is available. Commit access is easy to get. If you have a better design, nothing stands in the way of your improvements.

    • About ten years of lost progress stand in the way of improvements. Need I list the number of programming languages that came and went in that time?

      Thankfully I am not paying for any of the group developing perl 6, I would be pretty annoyed if that were the case.

      I can fix the webpage, sure. I cannot, however, fix the last 10 years of perl 6 debacle.

      • I cannot, however, fix the last 10 years of perl 6 debacle.

        So do you have anything useful to say, or are you just saying "GODDAMN THAT SUCKS WAH WAH WAH YOU ALL ARE DOODOOHEADS FOR WORKING ON IT," because really that's about all I'm seeing.

        --

        --
        xoa

        • Let me spell it out for you: drop this insane perl 6 thing immediately. Give us good, stable threading in perl 5 instead of self-hosting grammars in perl 6. Et cetera. We are your user base. Or used to be... - ank

          • Let me spell it out for you: drop this insane perl 6 thing immediately. Give us good, stable threading in perl 5 instead of self-hosting grammars in perl 6. Et cetera.

            Halting Perl 6 development today will not cause stable threading in Perl 5 to appear sooner than it otherwise would. Neither "stable threading in perl 5" nor the other features you've mentioned are blocked because of Perl 6 development. As far as I know, none of the existing Perl 6 developers are at all interested in working on these featu

            • Well, if I can help... I've given this issue some thought in the past and can put together a wishlist of what *I* think would be useful. Of course, it's just my opinion, but stealing from a few other langs.

              If that sounds good, where do you want me to send the info? - ank

              • Well, if I can help... I've given this issue some thought in the past and can put together a wishlist of what *I* think would be useful.

                Oh, that would be terrific! The ideal place for such ideas would be on the perl6-language mailing list. I will be honest up front that sometimes discussions and threads on that list quickly become bikesheds and messages get initially warnocked, but all of the thoughts and ideas that enter that list do get noticed and consideration from the core design team. Not everything proposed gets accepted into the design, but the designs do generally take all of the proposals into consideration.

                And since we're especially looking for ideas on threading and concurrency, I think they're likely to get extra attention. And there are enough people interested in threading/concurrency that I think we could see some prototype implementations relatively quickly (order of weeks or months). This is an area where we really do want to be able to explore implementations before trying to come up with a design (again, similar to what happened with OO in Perl 6).

                If you'd prefer to submit initial ideas in a less public forum, you can email them to me and I'll happily forward them directly to the design team or otherwise make sure they enter the relevant conversations (and keep you posted as to where discussions are leading).

                Regardless, I'd be eager to see what you and others have to say!

                Pm

                • I have reconsidered, after reading where the logo came from, and how only a person or two gave the idea of getting professional help a second thought. [perl.org]

                  I will not be sending you anything. I don't wish to have any part in it; mostly because I fear for my mental wellbeing.

                  • Far be it from to suggest it is already in peril. :-)

                  • Oh and btw, if you never post your ideas anywhere, then good luck waiting for the perl5-porters to read your mind and give you the sane threading you at least seemed to be wanting.

                    • Thanks for the encouragement; this is part of the list I was working on:

                      1. Simple stuff: sleep, time, run in backgournd, etc
                      2. Multithreaded data structures
                      3. Windows and other OS multithreading support
                      4. locks, semaphores and the like. built-in every object (a-la java)? or independent (a-la) python?
                      5. hyperthreading vs. CPUs vs. cores vs. number of threads
                      6. debugging
                      7. forking and multithreading: friends? also put other stuff into it
                      8. sharing and copying data; marking data as belonging to a thread (thread ownership)
                      9. t

                    • i'm more likely to create my own thing or contribute to another programming language

                      Cool. Then you'd get what you want, right? That would be great for all concerned, wouldn't it?

                      --
                      J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

                    • I don't "want" anything - I'm happily writing software in many languages. You still don't understand the problem. Can't see the forest for the tree, so to speak.

                      I just think it's sad that the perl 6 project has taken so long and has exhibited every single software project problem there is - especially overscoping - from a group of "world's best Perl programmers" who should really know better.

                      I also have deep concerns about having Larry Wall as a leader. The logo speaks for itself. [ank.com.ar]

                      I'm really tired of disc

                  • I have reconsidered, after reading where the logo came from, and how only a person or two gave the idea of getting professional help a second thought.

                    The discussion on the list is not the sum-total of all discussions on the topic -- it has also been discussed on IRC. Several more than two of us have floated the idea of using a professional designer -- we just didn't use the mailing list to suggest or discuss it.

                    And fwiw, I did get a professional designer to come up with the temporary logo for Rakudo.

                    Pm

                  • By which, do you mean the part about larry suggesting it feminizes Perl?

                    ... I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :)

                    I remain in utter awe of the whole thing....have the entire lot of folks gone off their meds or something? Women who survive in this business will not be seduced into thinking a language with a feminine butterfly must be a lot less full of assholes tha

                    • It's not just that. It's also the complete lack of a coherent plan to promote the programming language. It's the idea that planning doesn't matter at all, and that "it will be done when it's done." It's a bunch of the comments that I've seen. If you really want, I can quote...

                      I agree that it doesn't influence, but only when it's sane. At the end of the day, a client has to buy this, and this guy is not going to put his money on a language that doesn't have a coherent attitude towards promotion, marketing,

                    • ... if a person is to design a plan to help make Perl 6 more appealing to people outside the main mid-age-male-geek demographic, that person is definitely not Larry Wall.

                      Do it, then. If people agree with you, people will work with you. If they don't, they won't. That's how community-driven development works.

                      It's the idea that planning doesn't matter at all....

                      Nonsense.

                      You're welcome to believe that hordes of volunteers not immediately dropping what they're working on and hewing to your vision of what

                    • Well, I don't know that professionalism or a well-formed plan is always so needed, especially in the original spirit of opensource but, to anyone who thought P6 was, or has become, a joke by way of 8 years of design will not be dissuaded from that position by that site. It might even persuade many others who were merely neutral into thinking the language has reached it's comic endpoint.

                      And no, a man who can't confront the people who make perl an unfriendly misogynistic place will not get a pass with a fluff

                    • Nonsense??? "IT WILL BE DONE WHEN IT'S DONE". That's a thousand times more annoying and incoherent than a stupid logo.

                      I am not offended and do not care who is offended or not. This is a fabrication of yours, trying to put me in a position that is comfortable for you and your work.

                      About community-driven development, I think you are forgetting the monetary factor. You are certainly no freeloading hippie. Neither are most of the core developers, right?

                      Again, I'm getting really tired of trying to open your e

                    • And one last thing: I proposed and designed an alternative logo. It was ignored, and Larry went as far as to call himself a professional designer. I think I need not point to the guy's homepage.

                      Please note that the logo itself did not change the way I saw the perl 6 project. I just think it's a final kick in the teeth for some long time users of perl.

                    • I think you are forgetting the monetary factor. You are certainly no freeloading hippie. Neither are most of the core developers, right?

                      In eight years of working on Parrot and six and a half years of working on Perl 6, I've had $800 worth of travel compensated and received (I believe) $3500 in grant money. That's less than a week's wages at my consulting rate.

                      This is not a lucrative hobby.

                      Patrick and Jonathan have received much more in grant money (and Rakudo's progress demonstrates that), but they're b

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