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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • It's so easy to knock down straw men. Kinda fun sometimes, too.

    If only I had known that that liberals are driven by "wishful thinking" and and "the notion that we can make life on Earth perfect" and "[maybe] we can all have a Star Trek like existence". Gosh, even though I've never met a single liberal who espouses such a view, clearly you, Pudge, the Champion of Truth and Light, have revealed to me the Way. Never again shall I be so shallow as to believe that differences in core values might lead peopl

    • It's so easy to knock down straw men. Kinda fun sometimes, too.

      Sorry, try again. Actually, YOU are the one with the straw man here.

      If only I had known that that liberals are driven by "wishful thinking" and and "the notion that we can make life on Earth perfect" and "[maybe] we can all have a Star Trek like existence".

      I didn't say that. Listen again. I said it is a core part of the motive of MANY liberals. Not liberals in general.

      Gosh, even though I've never met a single liberal who espouses such a view
      • Agreed that you didn't say "all liberals". My apologies. However, you presented the viewpoint of what describe as "many liberals" and you quite failed to make it clear that this is a minority viewpoint. Instead, you presented a viewpoint that is clearly your own, you mocked it ("Star Trek like existence"?), and used a minority opinion -- one I don't hear -- as a contrast to conservative opinion. You might think it's fair to contrast a minority opinion with what you clearly view as the rational conservat

        • Agreed that you didn't say "all liberals". My apologies. However, you presented the viewpoint of what describe as "many liberals" and you quite failed to make it clear that this is a minority viewpoint.

          Excuse me for not being perfect. I guess my own lack of perfection is part of why I don't believe in the possibility of immanentizing the eschaton. :-) If I had gone deeply into it, I surely would have made that point, but I quickly moved on to another aspect of the topic.

          Also consider the context: I just got done saying that SOME liberals and conservatives use fear to push their agenda. Clearly I wasn't saying ALL liberals and conservatives do this.

          I really didn't think anyone would think that either all/most liberals do believe this, or that I was trying to imply it. Obviously, I was mistaken, and I should have further emphasized the point for those who might be confused.

          And don't think I am insensitive to the issue: I've heard many liberals, many times, accuse "conservatives" or "Christian conservatives" or some variation of holding views that I don't hold, even though I am a member of those groups. Some of those are majority views (gay marriage is bad), some are not (dark-skinned people are bad). In either case, rarely do the liberal commentators discriminate even as much as I did, when I used the word "many."

          Instead, you presented a viewpoint that is clearly your own

          You say that as though it is a bad thing. I don't see how.

          you mocked it ("Star Trek like existence"?)

          I didn't even make that up. Did you listen to the very first Ask Pudge episode? You asked a question that I answered on it, about Perl 6. One of the other questions (by a liberal friend of mine) specifically asked why we, as a society, do not try to move more toward the poverty-lessness of Star Trek. I was mocking it, but I didn't make it up, and I believe it is worthy of mockery.

          Again, I am not mocking liberalism there, just this one view that many liberals hold.

          and used a minority opinion -- one I don't hear -- as a contrast to conservative opinion.

          But that was in the context of SOME liberals. I was absolutely contrasting that to my, and conservative, opinion. There's nothing wrong with that, and in doing so it does not imply that this view is a majority view.

          You might think it's fair to contrast a minority opinion with what you clearly view as the rational conservative opinion, but it's not.

          Of course it is. It is only unfair if I mean to make that view out to be the dominant liberal view, which I did not do, either implicitly or explicitly. There's nothing remotely unfair or wrong about it. If I say, "many C programmers think Perl's expressiveness is harmful, but Perl programmers believe it is a good thing," I am not saying all C programmers think it is harmful, or implying it in any way. Nor am I criticizing C itself, which has less expressiveness, because it certainly may be the case that this also has its clear benefits.

          You failed to make it clear that you were trying to comparing dissimilar things.

          I wasn't comparing dissimilar things. I was comparing two ideas about how the world works. Only in your mind -- not in mine -- does this have anything to do with majorities or minorities of certain ideological frameworks.

          If you feel that your characterization of liberals makes for a fair comparison, you need to provide some evidence that it's true that they believe "the notion that we can make life on Earth perfect".

          Come on ... you are attacking the strawman you just apologized for attacking.

          If you want some evidence that SOME liberals believe that, well, that's not hard. From Condorcet's notion that there exists a science which can solve all of man's problems, to Lennon's statement that "All You Need Is Love," to today's Neo-Marxists (on display prominently at various antiwar demonstrations), there is simply no disputing it. But I won't pretend to try to prove that "liberals" in general believe this, because I never stated it, I never implied it, and I don't believe it.
          • So to contrast this, I could make the following statement:

            Many conservatives are racist bastards who feel that non-white people are less intelligent than white people and are genetically predisposed to commit crime. Liberals, quite rightly, reject this notion.

            One problem with that statement is that I've now lumped all liberals in the same category. I doubt that many liberals would agree with the "many conservatives" viewpoint I present, but I'm sure that some do. However, my statement about conservat

            • So to contrast this, I could make the following statement:

              Yes.

              One problem with that statement is that I've now lumped all liberals in the same category. I doubt that many liberals would agree with the "many conservatives" viewpoint I present, but I'm sure that some do.

              Yes, but that is not a problem with the statement I made, I believe. Racism and liberalism are not mutually exclusive (although certainly, liberalism in America tends to reject it). But the possibility of "immanentizing the eschaton" is, I b
              • But why compare non-pervasive ridiculous notions in the first place? Isn’t that an excercise in futility? The fact that someone is liberal or conservative does not make them more or less likely to hold ridiculous views. What changes may be the particular form of crackpottery or the way it it is expressed. But either way, neither conservatives nor liberals (nor anarchists nor people of any other political view) are in any way protected from stupid ideas purely on account of their ideology.

                This is th

                • But why compare non-pervasive ridiculous notions in the first place?

                  I was asked the question of whether liberalism is driven by wishful thinking. I said for some liberals, it is. I didn't come up with the question, and I answered it truthfully.

                  The fact that someone is liberal or conservative does not make them more or less likely to hold ridiculous views.

                  Yes ... and?

                  But either way, neither conservatives nor liberals (nor anarchists nor people of any other political view) are in any way protected from stup
                  • Again, someone asked a question about whether liberalism is driven by wishful thinking. I said, some liberals are, and I, and others who hold to my ideology, disagree with that.

                    Reasonable liberals disgree with that just as much as you and others who hold to your ideology do. Your ideology is irrelevant. Failing to point this out creates the impression that you want to causally relate holding to your ideology to the rejection of wishful thinking.

                    • Reasonable liberals disgree with that just as much as you and others who hold to your ideology do.

                      Yes, and?

                      Your ideology is irrelevant.

                      Of course it's not: I am the one criticizing the belief in question, and doing it from my perspective.

                      Failing to point this out creates the impression that you want to causally relate holding to your ideology to the rejection of wishful thinking.

                      No, it does not. You obviously incorrectly infer that, but that impression was not created by me.
                • But why compare non-pervasive ridiculous notions in the first place?

                  Because that's what the question asked in the first place.

                  --
                  J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers