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  • TeeJay: did you read this article by Philip Greenspun [], which I mentioned on scribot mainly for your benefit? It is long, but it brings out some interesting points. If you really lack the energy to read through it, I can bullet point my choice of them for you.

    Perhaps it'll shake you out of your dogmatic world view. However, I think the previous evidence is really against that.
    • Reading through the article I find an even more dogmatic world view. Although there are a lot of interesting facts unearthed and more than enough evidence to tarnish the reputation of many Arab Nations (rather than their people), there is incredible speculation and lack of understanding of very important issues.

      Assuming that arabs and muslims worldwide hate jews as much as nazi germany is hardly plausable, and the comments on the piece posted by Irish readers show large holes or conflicts in his logic. In the abscene of votes and polls showing popular support for arab leaders, he is finding the worst figures possible - European arabs and muslims would probably have a great deal more day to day contact with jewish or israeli people than those living in the middle or far east - those who hate jews would be in a very small minority - perhaps a similar size to those who voted for far right parties in their respective countries - the UK BNP has no seats and a handful of councillors - based on that you could say less than 1% rather than the 30% Greenspan uses would be more accurate. The 30% would probably apply only in places like Palestine where there is a great deal of propoganda reinforced by personal circumstances and a lack of education - nothing like living in slums and dodging sniper fire to breed hate and distrust.

      You could apply much of his logic to Muslims as much as to Jews - Arabs and Islam have suffered a great deal of oppression for almost as long, the crusades being the most well known example, but also many other conflicts with christian and jewish nations, as well as mosques and arabs being targetted in India, Europe and America.

      He claims that Europe doesn't want its jewish refugees back, but Isreal has high standards of education and skills and plays a key role in Industries like IT and Diamonds. These are the people that Europe wants to immigrate - not those poor illiterate arabs and eastern european asylum seekers. The UK is plucking the cream of medicine, IT and other industries from India, the middle east and asia and would jump at the chance for skilled nurses, doctors, scientists, lawyers, police, teachers, programmers and businessesmen looking to move here.

      He makes other claims about how the palestinian people are brainwashed by the TV, etc. The important thing israel needs to do to counteract is to act contrary to the propoganda - the IDF provides plenty of propoganda opportunities, creates martyrs and creates an atmosphere of terror far worse than the thought that perhaps if you go to tel aviv a bomb might blow up that week. If israelis are scared of a few bombs then palestinians must be really scared of a barrage of rockets, shells and bullets - this must surely reinforce any propoganda - the IDF showing they are every bit as bad as angry widows and extremist clerics claim.


      @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
      print reverse @JAPH;
      • "Assuming that arabs and muslims worldwide hate jews as much as nazi germany is hardly plausable" Why isn't it plausible? I don't think all Muslims want me dead; but I think that there are N Muslims who do believe that I should be killed, where N is a number that is larger than I would like it to be. In fact, I think it's fair to say that that there are British citizens who would like have a chance to kill me and my family. Tell me that the following account of Saudi and Yemeni sports teams forfeiting t
        • it isn't plausable because that would be a larger proportion than any UK party votes, or for any party in europe.

          Islam itself is a peaceful religion (although like the bible you can effectively bend the words to suit any agenda).

          It is less plausable than saying that 30% of jews hate muslims or arabs because polls show that a significant minority , enough to vote in a coalition of right-wing parties to the Israeli government, voted for arab/palestine policies.

          I think its reasonable to boycott both the


          @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
          print reverse @JAPH;
          • "it isn't plausable because that would be a larger proportion than any UK party votes, or for any party in europe." I can't figure out what "it" refers to in this sentence.
          • No question that Islam can be a peaceful religion.

            It was not, however, a peaceful religion at its founding. It was a warrior religion.

            And it is not, in some very well funded interpretations, a peaceful religion today -- as I am reminded each time I look at the Manhattan skyline.

            The question you have to ask yourself is why do British citizens walk out from their mosque feeling compelled to die in the process of killing as many Jews as possible. Don't tell me because of the injustice, because there are

            • 2 british muslims out of over a million (guessing) have chosen to blow themselves up in Israel - they could have targetted jews just as easily elsewhere but did not. So you cannot conclude that a british muslim is going to kill you in america for being a jew. For being american possibly but only 2 al-quaida bombers were british out of $very_big_num muslims in the UK.

              If you can't distinguish between the 99.9% of muslims worldwide who don't wish to kill any jews, and the small minority that do - then it is


              @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
              print reverse @JAPH;
              • If you can't distinguish between the 99.9% of muslims worldwide who don't wish to kill any jews, and the small minority that do - then it is a slippery slope to their level.

                Everything I know about Islam (and I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject for many years, although I would never call myself an expert) tells me that it is indeed a peaceful religion. But I have yet to read more than a handful of reports from Arab countries indicating that there is serious opposition to suicide bombers, o