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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • First point:

    You don't like Perl 6.

    You did not involve yourself in that project.

    You don't like what others have done.

    You have some weird ideas on how community projects work: you think that there's a cabal that controls the project. Well, you may call it a cabal, but anyone can join. You just have to write some idea in the mailing lists, or talk on the IRC channels, or submit a patch to the code or the documentation.

    If you have an interest in the outcome of the project, you don't ignore it for 12 years and then complain about what others have done.

    On the other hand, you are completely entitled to your opinions, and to write them down for all to read. You are also entitled to use whatever programming language you like. I, for one, don't care if you write Python, Ruby, Java, or Visual Basic (I've written code in Python, Java, C++, even Pascal, and got paid for it, so what?).

    You may even design and implement your ideal programming language, and we may even like it enough to use it.

    Second point, and the one I just don't understand:

    How do you jump from "I don't like what Perl6 has become" to "I'll try to make life difficult for one person"?

    In other words, why do you think you have a say in how a person (that's not you) presents himself to the world? If chromatic wants to be know by seven different names, it's his choice.

    Also, he can decide to delete all the comments in his weblog, and that's perfectly fine. You know why? Because it's *his* weblog. You have your own place (here), where you can write whatever you want.

    How is not approving a comment a "violent, frightened response to a threat"? If I invite people in my house, and I discover that I don't like one of them, am I not allowed to say "go away and don't come back, I don't like you"?

    You say you believe in individual freedoms, yet you deny others the freedom of choosing who they talk to. I'm confused.
    • Shane may be entitled to rejecting my comments, but he is definitely not entitled to editing them. It may be his blog, but it's my content - and my ideas. Misrepresenting my ideas on purpose is a violent act.

      I can tell you are confused. You are asking all the wrong questions. The real question is: why did we let this bunch of crazy people drive perl directly to the garbage? You don't care that it's become a joke? Interesting.

      You, as member of the perl community, are also responsible for it. Take some resp

      • In your original blog post, you said that chromatic had not approved your posts.

        In your comment above, you say he edited them.

        You also said you wanted a coherent conversation. It sounds like, right now, you're really upset and are having problems putting one together.

        If you have a beef with him, why not put together a clear, well-written post with what he did, with links to the topics.

        If, on the other hand, you're just mad and want to get even for him not approving your posts, I think you should chill. No

        • Shane has actually done both - rejecting and editing. Interesting how you didn't reply to any of my other comments.

          As for chilling - you only want me to "chill" (I am in no way upset about this issue) because what I'm saying is somehow insulting to you -- and this is the case only because you still believe the perl mythos - speed is not important, Conway is a great programmer, Wall is smart and a linguist thus perl is awesome, Perl looks like English, Perl 6 "will be done when it's done", Perl is awesome a

        • I believe there also seems to be a larger issue: Perl developers in general are not used to discussion. We are not used to having someone question our community leaders; we are not used to discussion - we are used to incoherent "state of the onion" addresses and absolutely no accountability.

          So, I understand that my comments might come as a shock, but believe me, these guys have been making a mess with what used to be a vibrant community - because we didn't follow them more closely. And every time things se

      • Misrepresenting my ideas on purpose is a violent act

        Bullshit. You are insulting every victim of true violence, ever.

        Why not go all the way and call it rape? chromatic raped you just as much as he was violent to you.

        J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
          • Think about it, kid. Our Perl community leaders have failed us

            That's funny; I don't remember voting for them.

            J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
              • Let me rephrase it: That's funny, I don't remember them dictating anything to me.

                J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
              • Never mind. You have missed every point of subtlety I've ever tried to make, so let me say it straight out: I can follow any leaders I please and ignore any leaders I want to. Your "our Perl community leaders have failed us" comment makes absolutely no sense to me. You and I share exactly zero leaders.

                What you have is some people you want to follow, and they don't want to lead you, and apparently this isn't getting through your head. They are going to Georgia, and you want to go to Massachusetts, and yo

                J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
                  • Contrarianism, basically - someone has to do it.

                    So you're doing it for the good of the community. How kind of you.

                    Is there something we can do to donate this kindness to another community?



            • Yep. The canary died; abandon the coal mine.

              J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
    • Wow, the more I think about your reply, the more I am amazed. Do they have this kind of hold on you? Look at the logo they pushed. Look at the response Wall and his minions had on that. Look at what they do, look at what they say. Look at the discussions, the sheer insanity of Wall's answers. These are the leaders you want? Wow. Just wow.

      I guess you defend the liberties of kicking people out when you don't like what they have to say, right? One true programming language is much better than a few - and it'

      • Also, do you want to know why Parse:RecDescent is only documented as pod and noone cares? Because he is a sacred cow, everyone assumes that his code MUST be good, and whatever he writes goes straight into stuff that we are supposed to use -- just because he is Doctor Conway, who can code in his sleep.

        Also, since we as perl minions have the delusion that "speed doesn't matter", as long as it works we don't look into it - who cares how fast it is?

        Give me a break. More conformist behavior. I'm tired of it -

        • Give me a break.

          From what?

          You are the one who brought up P::RD. Then you proceeded to fantasise a completely hypothetical response to your point; then worked yourself into a lather over the fantasy; then proceeded to hallucinate that something real took place – and yeah, then you needed a break from an “exchange” which took place entirely inside your head.

          You know what the funniest thing is?

          Everyone already knows to avoid Damian-ware. Imagine. No one is offended. No one cares.

          Your revela

      • As for the information on who chromatic is, it's public knowledge (I found it via Google,)....

        I'm not sure what you found, but my driver license reads T******* D****.

        • Great, Shane - then you won't be bothered when I call you Shane Warden.
          • While Mr. Warden (or Mr. Christopher or Mr. Erle or Mr. Nutter or Mr. Carlyle or Mr. Collier, whoever you decide to believe I am next) might, I'm much more interested in that research to which you referred Moritz months ago, or your thoughts on the APL case studies I recommended, or you talking on #perl6 or writing to p6l with constructive suggestions on how to improve learnability and cohesion and language retention.

            In truth, I'm happy to ignore everything except your thoughts on language design.

            • Shane, you've proven that you are very happy to ignore and edit my thoughts on language design as well.

              • Apparently the "Crazy to English" automatic translator plugin I use on MPB isn't perfect. I filed a bug on Movable Type.

                • Also, Shane, I'm not the one with multiple personality disorder :D
                  • I don't know what to tell you, Wendy Darling. In between your frenetic bursts of trying to track down Mr. Warden (I should admit to some connection, as did drive by his house this weekend; it's over two hours south of mine), did you happen to find your research papers? I know several other people are interested in proof that Perl 6 is doomed somewhat more conclusive than "Perl 6 is doomed, and I read somewhere why!"

    • This really cracks me up: []

      Look at all the perl intelligentsia trying really hard not to get his name in the wiki page. Status quo anyone? What else are they doing for each other behind our backs?

      I am surely happy I have never given money to The Perl Foundation, who knows what they could be up to. Maybe it's time to check on the results of some of their grants?