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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • If my economics are wrong, show me. [...] If you know the secret to software development, show me.

    Let's try to do just that.

    Here's zero dollars and the source code. Fix everything you can about Perl 5. See you in two years.

    I disagree with your economics. While the sums spent on Perl 6 development were certainly not vast, it may actually be one of the better funded open source language developments out there, certainly compared with Perl 5 during the late 20th century period in which I followed it closely. Are Ruby, Python, Lua, and, for that matter, Perl 5.x, really better funded than Perl 6?

    Here's 1084 patches I've made or applied to Parrot in the past three years.

    Here's one secret to software development, especially open source software development: It does not count as "coding" until you ship it in an actual release >= 1.0. Until then, it's just intellectual masturbation. The problem with Perl 6 has never, as far as I know, been a shortage of people with ideas, or willingness to write code to back up those ideas. There seems to be, however, a dire shortage of people willing to commit to shipping and to building a consensus to focus on shipping, to the exclusion of any new neat idea that may come along.

    Until Perl 6 has a demonstrable use to the public, it's entirely pointless to complain about economics. Perl 6 has received a fairly generous advance of money and trust from the community, as open source projects go - including people willing to buy a book about it 5 years ago. It's up to Perl 6 now to earn back that money and trust by shipping and being of actual use. Once people can use it and don't want to live without it, asking for more money is entirely reasonable.

    Not coincidentally, I've had actual Perl 6 code running in public for about the same amount of time.

    Is it deployed? Is it expected to keep running the next time Parrot / Perl 6 are revised?

    Of course, you can find Perl 6 and Parrot milestones if you search the web too.

    The two milestones I've heard personally, from people high up enough in the project to count, were "Shipping code in 18 months", stated in 2000, and "Shipping code in 18 months", stated in 2004. Admittedly, it's been several years since I've actually cared about when Perl 6 would ship, other than out of a morbid sense of curiosity.

    P.S. Perl 5.10, circa 2007 is quite decent.

    And so was Perl 4.019, circa 1991, and most releases in between. Perl was steadily moving forward until 2000, and 5.x again seems to be steadily moving forward now. Is the Perl 6 project helping Perl as a language? I don't think so. It absorbed a lot of mindshare and momentum in the early 2000s, it cast FUD on the continued viability of Perl 5 (and has vastly benefited Python, and to some extent Ruby, in the process), and it arguably still siphons off funding that would be better spent on moving Perl 5 along. The result is a steady shrinkage of the Perl ecosystem, even though it's still formidable.

    That said, y'all of course have every right to do what you want with Perl 6. Just don't be surprised if your efforts to figure out how many continuations can dance on the head of a sigil are met with more derision than awe these days.

    • Are Ruby, Python, Lua, and, for that matter, Perl 5.x, really better funded than Perl 6?

      Charles Nutter, Ola Bini, John Lam, and at least one more person I'm forgetting at the moment are all funded Ruby implementation developers.

      Guido van Rossum is a funded Python developer. I don't know whether to count Alex Martelli. Jim Hugunin is a funded Python developer.

      I don't know who's funded to work on Lua. I thought it was a research project from Roberto's university, but I haven't confirmed that just n

      • Charles Nutter, Ola Bini, John Lam, and at least one more person I'm forgetting at the moment are all funded Ruby implementation developers.

        My impression is that Nutter & Bini are on JRuby and Lam is on IronRuby, so I'm not sure they should count for funding of the mainline interpreter.

        Guido van Rossum is a funded Python developer.

        Full time? My impression was that he had other duties at Google as well.

        To find funded Perl 5 developers, you have to go to ActiveState

        Who, I believe, tend to fu

        • ... if you look at it over the almost 8 years of Perl 6 development, rather than on a monthly cash-flow basis, it is not all that insubstantial either.

          Let's take the $150,000 paid to Larry, Damian, and Dan, the $70,000 from NL.net, the $10,000 from the Mozilla Foundation, $3000 from Vienna.pm, and $20,000 from various Summer of Code projects. That's $255,000 over eight years for a language design, at least one modern virtual machine, and one implementation. That's just under $32,000 per year.

          I invit

          • ... if you look at it over the almost 8 years of Perl 6 development, rather than on a monthly cash-flow basis, it is not all that insubstantial either.

            Let's take the $150,000 paid to Larry, Damian, and Dan, the $70,000 from NL.net, the $10,000 from the Mozilla Foundation, $3000 from Vienna.pm, and $20,000 from various Summer of Code projects. That's $255,000 over eight years for a language design, at least one modern virtual machine, and one implementation. That's just under $32,000 per year.

            My point