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  • Perlmonks is a tribe. I am not ashamed of that, because admission to this particular tribe is freely granted, and explusion requires a demonstrated systematic blatent disregard for sense and sensibility, and unwillingness to just "get" what the tribe is about.

    Wassercrats got expelled.

    At some point, the tribe members had had enough. There's no formal mechanism for excommunication, as there is with some tribes, so the closest thing is to provide appropriate XP voting and followups, especially linking to

    • Randal L. Schwartz
    • Stonehenge
    • I went back and forth on it, and finally decided that a comment this interesting really required a reply - so at the risk of appearing to merely be trying to get the last word ;-) (which isn't the reality) ...

      It's a reasonable notion and certainly intelligently put forth: that (paraphr) "Perlmonks is a tribe and the tribe expelled Wassercrats". After thinking about the proposal for a bit I realized with a bit of a start that I sensed ESR (Eric Raymond, for those readers who aren't Merlyn, etc) ... not that I believe the thoughts aren't yours.

      To a conditional degree I could agree with some of the points made, but I've not changed my mind on the whole. I think that the notion that Perlmonks is a tribe is more an act of creative imagination on your part than an objective reality. I have a lot of respect for that kind of creative imagination, though! It can have to power to reshape reality. But in my perception there is really nothing convincingly identifiable about Perlmonks that would support this.

      The only tribe in sight for me is the Hacker tribe. Perlmonks lacks a coherency of viewpoint and uniformity of attitudes sufficient to consider it any sort of "tribe". Some, many, of the Perlmonks are certainly in the Hacker tribe. Some are not - there are Sysadmins (just for example) who basically just like hanging around for the company and the distraction it affords them (and the occasional help with Perl, sure), but aren't really "on fire" to absorb Perl and eat, breath and dream Perl.

      I think ESR wrote that hackers are a tribe. I have found myself in full agreement with nearly everything else I have ever read that Eric Raymond has written. I only somewhat agree with this (I don't think it's anything more than a metaphor, and not the only one available), but in any case I especially don't agree that Perlmonks is a separate, special tribe. I think it's a place where some of the hacker tribe is hanging out at present. I think it's also a great many different things to a great many different Monks, and that's my point. It isn't seen by people within it in a uniform, coherent manner.

      I also think that it's worth pointing out that "tribalism" is near the root of many of the most desperate and intransigent problems in today's world. Mankind seriously needs to outgrow tribalism, which has become a thing like an appendix is to the modern human anatomy. I'm more happy if Perlmonks isn't a tribe and doesn't become one.

      For the sake of readers I need to reiterate the two points in the summary paragraph of my journal entry, as well. I wrote that

      those readers who mention Wassercrats with a sneer of prideful contempt, as I saw tonight, ... you really ought to be ASHAMED of yourselves

      No victory was accomplished for or by anyone when Wassercrats left under those conditions.
      and in the context of last evening's Chatterbox conversation, my certain "sense" was that "Wassercrats" was being held as a threat over someone else currently present, and that as on a couple previous occasions, there was an unmistakable sense of gloating conveyed.

      Merlyn, if you are a tribal elder at Perlmonks, you are a damn crappy one - like an absentee father. I say this with the utmost affection. I like it fine if you are "just" a wise old Perl hacker who drops in from time to time and drops "perls" of Perl wisdom on us struggling hopefuls.

      There's a bit of real illness going on over at Perlmonks, and there really isn't anything like a tribal leadership that will deal with it. It's ill and wrong when people gloat over what happened to Wassercrats.

      It was no victory that Wassercrats was forced to leave by whatever means were directed towards that end. It would have been victory if the Perlmonks community had collectively been able to, through patient explanation and convincing, cause Wassercrats to adjust his ideas and attitudes so that adequate congruence with the community's sensibilities and goals could be achieved. I cannot say that I know that Wassercrats should not have been forced out: that's not what my journal says, and I clarify here: maybe it was necessary. But it was at the very best unfortunate and sad, and nobody should ever GLOAT over it.

      • I'm more happy if Perlmonks isn't a tribe and doesn't become one.
        Then be unhappy. I think your denial of this point is what causes your grief about the results.

        I'm very clear that monks, like many other parts of the Perl community, and to a lesser extent, the Perl community as a whole, exhibits all the symptoms of classical tribalism.

        To not understand that, and worse, to deny that, leads to disappointment.

        • Randal L. Schwartz
        • Stonehenge
      • Says Intrepid: "There's a bit of real illness going on over at Perlmonks"

        Yeah. It's you. Wake up and smell your own hypocrisy.