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  • I wish people would stay away from the "religious" argument. There is plenty of other stuff to say. Like the lifestyle being bad unhealthy and bad for families. The 5000 years of traditional man+woman marriages around the world. The historical fight for it in America itself. The slippery slope issue. The list goes on and on without it ever being a religious issue.

    Besides, most of the protesters that show up with religious signs for or against couldn't even tell you where Leviticus is found in the Bible. I

    • Isn't the "unhealthiness" of the "lifestyle" related to promiscuity? Do you really think that allowing gays to marry would increase promiscuity? If so, I'd like to hear how you work that out.
      • by RobertX (3759) on 2004.03.05 10:59 (#29085)

        The fight is about normalizing the homosexual lifestyle, when it is not a normal lifestyle.

        50% of homosexual men over the age of 30, and 75% of homosexual men over the age of forty, experienced no relationships that lasted more than one year. Source: M. T. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality: A Comprehensive Investigation (Baltimore: Williams Wilkins, 1973), pp. 56-57.

        Two homosexual icons, Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, wrote this about male homosexuality: " gay men aren't very good at having and holding lovers...(because) gay men tire of their partners (sexually) more rapidly than straight men." And according to them, the average homosexual male first "seeks (sexual) novelty in partners, rather than practices, and becomes massively promiscuous; (but) eventually, all bodies become boring, and only new practices will thrill. "The cheating ratio of 'married' [committed] gay males, given enough time, approaches 100%." Source: Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen," After the Ball," (NY: Doubleday, 1989) pp. 304-320.

        In 1978, a study done by two homosexual doctors revealed staggering statistics. Of 685 homosexual men, 589 (83%) had 50+ partners in their lifetime, 497 (73%) had 100+, 394 (58%) had 250+, 284 (41%) had 500+, 182 exceeded 1000 partners, an astonishing 26%. And 79% noted that over half their sexual contacts were total strangers. Source: Bell, A.P. and Wienberg, M.S. " Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women " (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.)

        75% of homosexual men are currently carrying one or more pathogens. Source: Miles, A.J., et al. " Effect of Anal-receptive Intercourse on Anorectal Function. " Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine 86 ( March 1993 ): p.146.

        In 1981, it was reported that 78% of "gay" men have had or have a Sexually Transmitted Disease ( STD ). Source: H.H. Hansfield, "Sexually Transmitted Diseases in Homosexual Men," American Journal of Public Health ( 1981 ): pp. 989-90.

        In a 1997 news article, The New York Times stated that a male teenager entering the homosexual lifestyle today has a 50% chance of getting AIDS by the age of fifty. Source: Sheryl Gay Stolberg, " Gay Culture Weighs Sense and Sexuality," New York Times (late edition, east coast), November 23, 1997, section 4, page 1.

        • So if I'm part of any group that has a tendency toward promiscuity I can't marry? Or does that only apply if I'm part of the group that you consider "abnormal"? Weren't eastern europeans considered abnormal? African americans? Or for that matter, anyone with a darkish hue?

          If you consider homosexuality abnormal that's your business, I couldn't care less. When you use your belief to tell other people what to do and who to love, that's a different matter. Why should you even care?

          I realize it's pointless t

          • I am not telling anyone what to do or who to love. I am just stating that I (and the majority of Americans) do not consider homosexuality a normal lifestyle. I stop short in telling them to stop. If they want to risk their health then that is up to them. I even stop short of creating a constitutional amendment. There are better ways to protect marriage.

            You arguments against people groups being abnormal is inane. Those people groups do not have inherent health risks associated with them. The color of some

            • How are two people getting married "forcing their beliefs" on you? When two muslims get married they're not asking you to believe the Koran is the holy word of God, they're just asking you to respect their beliefs in their own religion and for one another. How is this different?

              The other arguments, "it's always been that way" and "it's a health risk" are also wrongheaded. I hate to trot the argument out again but history is rife with examples of traditional practices that have been overturned with progres

              • Nice straw man argument.

                • Okay, I'll bite: Assume I'm a moron and explain the differences. Without using a gussied up version of "those fudgepackers are evil".
                  • Why do people who argue that they're opposed to homosexuality for health reasons, not because of religion, remind of people who rave about the benefits of hemp clothing but claim their interest is unrelated to marijuana legalization?

                    For that matter, they also remind me of people who trumpet scientific studies saying that homosexuality is genetically determined and claim that means it should be legal and socially accepted. If tomorrow studies found that it wasn't genetically determined, would they then beli
            • If your argument is based on health risks, then perhaps only lesbians should be allowed to marry, since the risks of lesbian sex are lower than those of heterosexual sex.

              Besides, homosexuals aren't the only people who engage in "abnormal" sexual practices. Are you in favor of outlawing all such behavior, so as to avoid legitimizing it?
              • But we do already...

              • Though only articles I quoted where were about males, the risk of lesbian sex is HIGHER that hetero as well.

                • So how do you feel about gay men who marry to hide their lifestyle and have children, too?
                  • should put on your overalls and go down there and start shouting "FUCK THE FARMERS! FUCK THEM RIGHT UP THEIR ASS" next to the fundys. Get someone with a camera to go along with you as I want pictures, too. :D
                    • I want pictures of Schwern holding Bible quotes about God forbidding shrimps(*) in front of an evil sushi restaurant that destroys our traditional values.

                      (*) for those of you heathens who aren't familiar with the Torah, this is actually true.

                    • I thought about it. Part of the reason I went down there in the first place was there's this REALLY LOUD street preacher who was there on Wednesday condemming the people there in his REALLY LOUD BOOMING VOICE! This guy can project. I was hoping he'd be there again and I could counter-preach in my own Conference Voice.
                      He wasn't there yeseterday. Instead it was just a doudy group of very quiet Fundies. I thought about doing a little needling, but then I realized that jeez, people are getting married here
                    • Somebody already beat me to it. []
                    • What about the naked sushi chef? :)

            • What makes it right for them to force their beliefs on me when 5000 years of marriage has always been traditionally defended here (for the last 200 or so) and around the world as one man and one woman?

              A) Nobody's forcing their beliefs on you. Nobody's hand-cuffed you to another man, dragged you down to the county clerk and demanded you get a marriage license. By declaring that before the eyes of the law, only a man and a woman can have a legal union you are forcing your beliefs on other people. Mar

              • Tradition is a cop out

                It's a cop out for saying we shouldn't change, but it's a damn good reason for saying we should only make those changes legally and deliberately, collectively, instead of by fiat of a few (unless those few happen to be supreme court justices :-).
                    • Yes, legalizing same-sex marriage is forcing beliefs on other people in the same way that the fourteenth ammendment is forcing beliefs on other people. That is, all law is forcing your beliefs on someone at some point, even if that law is about freedom. I hope we all knew this already.

                      While its good to remember that all law is, in some way, enforcing belief, its about as interesting in the context of this discussion as having a physics argument and someone chiming in, "but you can never really prove anyt
            • > Those people groups do not have inherent health risks
              > associated with them

              Actually, there are very clear health risks associated with people groups defined by skin color. Folks with more melanin (skin pigment) are at a much lower risk for skin cancer. The correlation runs the other direction regarding heart disease. You can find trends like this for many health risks.

              Some racists would look at a hand-picked collection of these correlations and claim that other races are genetically inferior while
        • Let's assume those stats you dug up have some basis in reality. Should we legally prevent someone from getting married just because they're a member of a group and thus might be at risk? If we do it for gays, why not every other at risk group? Should we take statistics of STDs, divorce, spouse and child abuse rates amongst various ethnic, social, sexual and economic groups and only give out marriage licenses to those who aren't in an at risk group? If we're going to deny people the right to marry based

        • The fight is about normalizing the homosexual lifestyle, when it is not a normal lifestyle.

          And so far, the result has been normalizing infidelity and adultery.

          Not to mention setting seed to the idea that the laws made by government are largely to be ignored.

          That is what happens when you pass stupid laws... people start ignoring the law.

          Is that really what people want? To weaken the very fragment of government just because some people have a stuffy diety that they think may actually exist?


          50% of h
          • That is what happens when you pass stupid laws... people start ignoring the law.

            Multnomah's an interesting case because, unlike San Francisco, the interpretation so far is that same-sex marriage upholds the law as the law is written on the books and that it would be unconstitutional by the fourteenth ammendment not to allow the marriages. The county's actions seem to be legal. Of course, people are arguing what the intentions of the lawmakers were (and they're right), and there's already a lawsuit i