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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • I really really hate advice along these lines. Yes, the system is completely corrupt, and no one of true integrity can get far enough to be voted for. So what should we do?

    Simply saying "don't vote for Obama" is spectacularly useless. The question is not what we shouldn't do, but rather what we can do to change things.

    My take on this is that this year, if you care about improving the world a little, you might as well vote for Obama. He sucks, but sucks a little less than McCain, and there's no other viable

    • of course, i buy natural/local or grow food myself, go everywhere by bike i can, educate myself and other people, also bit involved in spirituality. shure its counterproductive to tell others what to do but i wanted to keep this shout short and not discuss every pro and con. it was just a short reaction when i saw how many perl monks where too blind to see obamas new clothings.
      • the real solution i see in spirituality, which in fact translates into the love and caring about the people you know and see.
        • I don't consider myself a spiritual person, and yet I care about people. People will have different paths towards similar ends.

          The best way to change the world is to advocate for practical change. Saying "be spiritual" is useless, and may even be counter-productive if you're talking to an empiricist like myself. Saying "care about others" is no better.

          Instead, you can say "The environment is a major issue, especially global warming. If global warming continues we will all suffer. Here are a few steps you ca

          • my point was that it is spiritual to care, no matter how you name it.

            and thats really the way to heal and solve our problems. to waste time with that election is no solution. i just wanted to maybe help somebody to see that fraud, because you must be first aware of these things and be able to recognize these when they come in new clothes so you can't be tricked. Global warming and many othe sudo problems distrac to many people.

            you have to trust yourself and heal you from psychic problems before you ca
          • allright, i could start with the simple stuff: clean your body. eat the least meat you can do, no soft drinks, no junk food, no industrial sugar or salt, tooth paste without floride. organic food is not only more healthy but it tastes also much better. but thats the usual stuff you can read everywhere.

            what i really believe is most powerfull way to empower yourself is connect to god. when you calm down, thoughts are still and you know god from inner experience. Since i do that, i feel more like myself, mo
            • As I said, I'm not spiritual, I don't believe in god, and I don't think that the "feeling of love in your heart" means anything. I disagree with almost everything you're saying (except eat less meat and eat organic), but at least it's something people can do.

              I'm sure what you say would resonate with some people, though, and at least it's more positive than "don't vote for Obama, that's not smart".

    • He sucks, but sucks a little less than McCain, and there's no other viable choices.

      That attitude is why there are no other viable choices.

      I can't, in good conscience, vote for either McCain or Obama, because I believe they both:

      • Deliberately misunderstand the purpose of the presidency (why should the chief executive have a legislative agenda?)
      • Have spent the past two years ignoring their elected responsibilities to run for president (who's represented the people of Arizona and Illinois since January 2007?
      • I like your point, even its just a part of the issue, but shure can't adress eversthing here.
      • I'm not disagreeing. Not voting is a perfectly acceptable choice. Hopefully you do more than _not voting_ to further your social agenda, though.

        Again, instead of saying "don't vote", you could say "don't vote, there are many more important things you could do instead, here's a few of them you can start doing right now ..."

        • Not voting is a perfectly acceptable choice.

          I'm not voting for McCain or Obama. That leaves plenty of other candidates for whom I could vote.

          Hopefully you do more than _not voting_ to further your social agenda, though.

          Indeed I do, but I don't want credit for it, and I try not to call attention to it. Perhaps that leaves me open to charges of grandstanding or hypocrisy, but answer me this: why spend so much time and money and worry hoping that "change" will happen after you elect a guy who has, at bes

          • I don't disagree with anything you said.

            My original point was that telling people "don't vote for Obama", absent any other advice, is a terrible thing to do, and it pisses me of.

            How about saying something with more substance ...

            Voting for Obama or not isn't that important. There are lot of things you can do which will have a much greater impact on the world right now. They're a little harder than voting, but they also have a much greater impact. If you care about social change, you can help make it happen,

            • How about saying something with more substance ...

              I agree completely. I would consider more seriously any candidate who said that and whose campaign actually demonstrated that attitude with actions.

        • Not voting is a perfectly acceptable choice.

          This is a fiction. Not voting says you don't care. It's not making a statement that none of the parties are good enough for your vote. It's not telling the politicians that you're sick of their rubbish. It's saying you don't care enough to vote. That you're happy with whoever the people who do vote pick.

          There is no way to distinguish between people who are too lazy to vote and people who think they're making a statement, thus everyone who doesn't vote m


          • Not voting is a perfectly acceptable choice.

            This is a fiction. Not voting says you don't care. It's not making a statement that none of the parties are good enough for your vote. It's not telling the politicians that you're sick of their rubbish. It's saying you don't care enough to vote. That you're happy with whoever the people who do vote pick.

            Or it could just be that you've reached the not unreasonable conclusion that voting is not an effective way of changing the world.

            I didn't say it was a statement. I agree, it's not a statement, because very few people will ever know why you didn't vote. But it is a reasonable choice given the choices voting allows.

            Again, if all you do is not vote, you're not doing anything useful. If you're involved in real activism and you also choose not to vote, that's fine. As I've said several times in this thread, voting is not activism, and if that's your sole contribution to changing society, it's near useless.

            Nonetheless, I will be voting tomorrow. I'm not very motivated by the presidential race, but we do have a few good local candidates, including a Green Party candidate for state legislature who could possibly win. I live in a ridiculously left area (one of the leftiest parts of a very lefty city (Minneapolis)).

  • You may not like Obama, and if you were an american citizen you could use your vote to express that, but telling others to not vote is just wrong.

    Stop and ponder for a moment the fact that this conversation would be been impossible just 20 years ago. An East German and an American having a political conversation in a public forum (Not to mention the fact that you have made several comments involving god and spirituality which also would have not been possible). It most certainly was not apathy and inacti

    • I am not saying that i dislike him, I just stating that he is consciously misleading people. Some call that lying and i don't like to see it when people are not able to see that.

      What worked in east germany and what also worked for ghandis india and in pakistan is nonviolant noncooperation, which I also suggested, rather some political actions.
      • Well you presume to know the inner working of Obama's head and that he is consciously misleading people. That is a big assumption which you have backed up with nothing more than your perceptions and the observations of a coworker of your father. Have you ever meet Obama? Looked him in the eye? Spoken to him directly? Have you even seen him speak (in person, not on television)? Have you seen him speak on television without being surrounded by the noise of pundants and the slants they throw? I highly doubt y

        • Grassroots mobilization-- including *gasp* community organizing-- is the heart and soul of politics.
        • i know very well that good and right are relative terms, buts its about what i know about politic the system and many details not only about obama as well as my face reading abilities(which work fine on dayly basis) that makes clear to me that he want not to do what he pretends. I remember when wall came down and did here a more comprehensive answer that got lost due login problems, maybe later more.
          • One of the things I have found over the course of my life and travels is that face reading abilities are not always transferable across racial and cultural boundries and are greatly diminished when filtered through the television. So again, unless you have talked to him yourself and looked him directly in the eye, I am not buying your "expertise".

            But honestly, I will vote for Obama tomorrow because I know that even if (and I stress IF because I really don't agree with you) he individually is a liar and t

  • I won't be voting for Obama on November 4th! I won't be voting at all! Much like 6.3 billion other human beings...

    -Dom

  • Not being in the USA nor a USA citizen, I have no particular reason to believe that Obama is a liar nor that he has a string of broken promises. Not knowing how good your father's friend is at reading people, I can't really use that as evidence. However, due to reading many news sources from a variety of countries, I have been unable to avoid learning a little about Obama and McCain and of the two I prefer Obama. If there were a third option, perhaps I'd prefer that person, but I haven't heard of a third

    • Shure thats your truth, but my point was not you should believe him, but thats its so obvious that hie lies that even he can see it. I know that gut feelings are ridiculed as truthiness but also what i know intelectually about obama paints no different picture.

      You need a bit criminal mindset to recognize criminals, Tim OReilly seemes to lack this.
  • Whatever would we do if we had someone in the White House who broke promises and lied to the US populace? Oh the humanity!