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Re: Bitch Bitch Bitch 8 Comments More | Login | Reply /

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  • Pudge said: "Historical perspective: the modern U.S. term "conservative" is primarily a reference to libertarian ideals of small government"

    As a starting point (or I will consider your starting point), how about:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism [wikipedia.org]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarians [wikipedia.org]

    So would the small government of your conservatism keep itself out of gay marriage, recreational drug use, prostitution, and such? Or just keep itself out of gun control?
    • So would the small government of your conservatism keep itself out of gay marriage, recreational drug use, prostitution, and such? Or just keep itself out of gun control?

      Insofar as they are unrelated to the government and do not harm other people, yes. Obviously, gay marriage -- as an issue -- is closely related to the government, since what is desired is a sanctioning of a particular type of a union by the government. It's extraordinarily specious to frame gay marriage as a private, personal issue, since there is nothing less private than getting public respect and recognition of your union, which is what is being requested.

      I don't find any real validity to the request. There are plenty of ways to get legal rights without recognition as a marriage. Further, there's nothing in our legal tradition (until recently, of course) that implies that government has any sort of obligation to recognize a union just because the people involved happen to be in love (and indeed, it seems to me that the Establishment Clause says that government has no business recognizing love in the first place).

      Marriage is recognized by government not because the people involved are in love, but because marriage is good for society in various ways. So too can gay marriage be good for society, of course, but so too can many other types of unions; what's so special about gay unions?

      Not a lot. So when people try to convince me gay marriages "deserve" recognition, I am entirely unpersuaded. However, that's not the end of the story. Read more [slashdot.org] about my view if you care.

      As to recreational drug use, prositution, and gambling (which you did not mention but has similar issues involved), I am very concerned with the impact those activities have on the rest of society. The great libertarian principle is that your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Prositution and gambling -- even when legal -- bring with them more criminal activity. Unregulated use of drugs increases crime as well, as people steal to pay for their habits. Then there's the impact on the health care system.

      I am not at all opposed to legalizing those vices, under certain conditions: we should at least look into how we can address the problems those vices will bring with them. Maybe even if we cannot solve the problems, the benefits of ending the War on Drugs would outweight the new problems caused by legalizing them.
      • When

        Pudge said: "Historical perspective: the modern U.S. term "conservative" is primarily a reference to libertarian ideals of small government"

        I guess I should have said:

        Are you crazy? How can you say that the modern U.S. term "conservative" is primarily a reference to libertarian ideals of small government? Do you think legalizing recreational drug use, prostitution, and gay marriage are "conservative" goals of US conservatives?

        It seems to me that you equated conservatism in large part with libertariani
        • Are you crazy?

          No.

          How can you say that the modern U.S. term "conservative" is primarily a reference to libertarian ideals of small government?

          Because it is.

          Do you think legalizing recreational drug use, prostitution, and gay marriage are "conservative" goals of US conservatives?

          Broadly and vaguely, yes.

          Question: what is almost universally regarded as the premier journal of conservative thought of American conservatism? The easy and obviously true answer is National Review, which has come out in favor of dru
          • Ah, the logic.

            Buckley is conservative, Buckley espouses libertarian views, therefore conservative is libertarian.

            s/Buckley/Pudge/g
            s/Pudge/jDavidb/g

            At least jDavidb in citing his own post recognizes that libertarian is a better label than conservative for views such as his and supporting gays in the military.

            In citing Wikipedia's entries on conservatism and libertarianism, I hoped to get away from a strictly personal set of assertions. I note that Wikipedia presently describes "National Review" as a conserv
            • Buckley is conservative, Buckley espouses libertarian views, therefore conservative is libertarian.

              I didn't say that, of course. What I said was that the two have been, for many decades, been used interchangably with a certain form of conservativsm. And I offered evidence of it, and I favorably compared the views of each.

              Nice straw man, though. Logic, my ass.

              In citing Wikipedia's entries on conservatism and libertarianism, I hoped to get away from a strictly personal set of assertions.

              Again: logic, my as

        • Do you think legalizing recreational drug use, prostitution, and gay marriage are "conservative" goals of US conservatives?

          I am a US conservative, and I believe recreational drug use, prostitution, and gay marriage should all be legalized, as should any other victimless crimes, such as copyright infringement. As a matter of fact, I think marriage should be completely, 100% deregulated and the law should not in any way discriminate against people on the basis of marital status.

          Oh, and I'm a fundamenta

          --
          J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

        • Oh, and by the way, Barry Goldwater, author of Conscience of a Conservative, and considered by some (including my father) to be the father of modern conservatism supported allowing homosexuals into the military [perl.org], as do I.

          --
          J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
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