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NOTE: use Perl; is on undef hiatus. You can read content, but you can't post it. More info will be forthcoming forthcomingly.

All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • "Ruby on Rails doesn't scale..." I guess that's implicitly mentioned as the kind of headline FUD some managers follow.
    • Perhaps it's more fair to say that we (the BBC) have suffered some scalability issues with it.

  • The presence of Delphi in the top ten should be enough to discount TIOBE's list completely. Delphi. More popular than JavaScript.

    Perhaps there's some hidden Internet where Web 2.0 rounded corners are only possible through ADAX, and TIOBE's accidentally let on that such a beast exists.

    Delphi, also known as Pascal with object extensions, from the days when Anders Hejlsberg was still at Borland -- a decade ago.

    • There really is no point even talkling about TI**E, the guy behind it is known to be partisan towards python, makes no secret of the fact he hates perl.

      As chromatic pointed out, the fact he's included delphi shows how totally broken T***E is.

      http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?usage_statistics [perlfoundation.org]

      Shows plenty of metrics indicating that Perl community, usage, deployment and development is growing.

      In fact all evidence shows it's being used more and for bigger projects.

      --

      @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
      print reverse @JAPH;
    • Let me say it more bluntly.

      If you think TIOBE should not be completely dismissed because of its major flaws in both methodology and results, you're part of the problem.

      TIOBE falls prey to the First Citiwide Change Bank fallacy: that just by getting a LOT of bad data, you can overcome the problems inherent in your methodology. "One word: volume."

      But a lot of crap is still crap.

  • It took five and a half years to go from Perl 5.8.0 to Perl 5.10.0 which, according to CPAN, is a "testing" release, whatever that is. Six and a half years after the release of Perl 5.8.0, there's still no "stable" new major version of Perl.

    I disagree that gradual evolution has explaining power here. (Frankly, the only language above Perl on TIOBE's top ten list that shows even a flicker of evolution is C#. Python has a chance, but the modest goals of Python 3.0 may not compel upgrades. PHP's dying, and

    • IMHO, Ovid's points are absolutely spot-on and there's no need to play things down or look for excuses which might technically be correct but don't help the negative perception and reputation Perl has with managers and people new to the world of coding looking for a future-proof and appealing programming language. But most people in the Perl community don't realize this and will probably never realize it. If you look at how the world works you'll see that in most cases not the subjectively better thing wins
  • I am not sure if the core language matters that much. Moose shows that you can have nice Object Orientation in Perl without changing the core language. Frankly I don't see much difference between Perl, Python and Ruby - for me the libraries matter much more. And let's look where Perl was losing. It did not lose to Ruby - but rather to Rails. PHP? Again, this already been covered somewhere, the advantage of PHP is the deployment model not the language itself. As I wrote in What can bring the excitement [perlmonks.org]
  • I would love to see the birth of Perl 6 as the next guy, but I think that a few additions to Perl 5 would make a love of people -including newcomers- very happy:

    - We need a proper full blown Object Oriented framework. I don't care if it looks like java or ruby as long as it is standard (remember, we are catching up on this part).
    If it's too hard to implement in perl core, deliver it as a Module (Moose should be a candidate to deliver something fast) and include it in the *Standard* distribution so everyone

      • Actually, quite a number of languages have sigils attached to variables. Function and variable names cannot clash in Perl. The weird "built-in variables" are an annoyance mainly because they have global scope. And I fail to see how "Moose" is a joke, though you're spot on about Perl's built-in OO.

  • ..by following the money... i.e. jobs..

    Nice Graph that puts it PHP, Perl, Python and Ruby in perspective :
    http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+c%2C+python%2C+perl%2C+ruby%2C+php&l= [indeed.com]

    Java and C are an order of magnitude bigger than Perl, Python and Ruby, Perl and PHP are considerably bigger than Python and Ruby.

    Growth for all is slow but steady, no big drops, no big jumps. Nothing to see here... T**** is spewing random shit again.

    --

    @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
    print reverse @JAPH;
  • I think we can dismiss Tiobe, have proven it [perl.org]. Now you get to explain how I am part of the problem.

    Tiobe is deliberately lying. They know what's wrong, they've intentionally distorted the data, and there's nothing anyone can do to fix that. It's not just flawed, it's inescapably unsalvagable. Making Perl higher in a list of lies, or even wanting to change Perl's position in a stack of lies, is itself a lie.

  • Further down their page, the people behind that rating list note that *Logo* just entered the top 20. I think that shows you how useful the data are as a measure of how alive a language is!
    • The core perl community has a bias towards command line tools and more hacker oriented IDEs, vi and emacs are heavily used, but there are plenty of pretty good editors for Perl - Komodo (both free and commercial editions), not to mention scintilla based editors like Kephra and Padre.

      The editors are there, but people don't need or rely on them.

      --

      @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
      print reverse @JAPH;
    • I find that very interesting, but that information needs to get outside of the Perl world and into the hands of decision makers. And just holding steady on jobs isn't enough. COBOL's done that [indeed.com], even though Perl looks better in comparison.

    • The fact is that new programmers are not even thinking about Perl.

      That is false. I have many new programmers ask me about Perl.

    • Your English is fine. No worries :)

      I do agree with your approach. We did this at one of my former companies and it worked fine. Subsequent employers have been very resistant because they assume they can get good developers out of the box. Still, I'm happy to hear that you and others are still encouraging ways to deal with some of the shortcomings we face. Thank you!