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  • Pudge you don't know what you are talking about.
    Megret is a bona fide neo-nazi. His ideas are abject and should be fought relentlessly. And yes they make him a slimy bastard. And yes I hate him.
    These people do not participate in Democracy, they just spread hatred and madness.
    BTW there were anti-national front demonstrations every day for 2 weeks in every major city in France, more than a million people marched on May 1rst, and there were virtually no incidents, contrary to what happen a few years ago when n
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    mirod
    • Whatever his ideas are, are not the issue. Whether or not he wishes a free exchange of ideas, is not the issue. Granted, his ideas suck, and would go against everything France is supposed to stand for. So? Do you not trust the people to see that and vote accordingly? If not, what are you doing bothering with democracy for?

      And I am not saying there shouldn't be protests, demonstrations, or marches. I am saying that people don't have to get hysterical. I am saying that people don't have to get violent
      • My point is that megret's quote should be put in context: it comes from a neo-nazi, after 2 weeks of incredibly pacific demonstrations in the street against what he represents. There were no calls for violence against the national front in France, just calls for people to vote. Hence what he says is just not true. What happened in The Netherlands has no relation to the French situation. This is just the usual rethoric of a paranoid mind that likes to appear as a victim and is quick to use any opportunity to
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        mirod
        • I didn't mean specifically that the French people in general, or the demonstrators in general, or you in particular, wanted or called for violence. However, I do agree with him that "hysterical" positions do often lead to violence (note that I took that in my original post and generalized it so as to not make it specific to any group), and this is what I am decrying. People were basically going nuts over the viewpoints of this man, hating him, and being filled with vitriol toward him and his party. That'
          • Hate is dangerous, and should not be fought with more hate. I realize that Le Pen is an evil rat bastard Nazi. But I believe that it has only short-term benefit, if that, to hating him, defeating him and his ideas with hate, to attempting to incite vitriol for him and his party.

            Did I miss some news? As I understood it, Le Pen did unexpectedly well in the initial balloting because there were a slew of candidates to split the left. He beat the PM, whom people had assumed was a shoo-in for the runoff, beca
            • Regardless, I thought I had made it perfectly clear several times -- apparently not? -- that I am talking about the overall feeling that I get, not anything in particular done by the French people. The demonstrations were good. I was very pleased to see people come out in force to speak and vote against Le Pen's candidacy. Perhaps the lack of provided context or example confused my intention: whether it is Mir saying he hates Le Pen, or other people I've seen expressing extreme hatred and vitrol toward him, it bothers me. It's the opposite of what should be happening. Statements like this:

              I felt literally sick going out this morning and knowing that 1 personne out 8 I would see in the street voted for a fascist ... amongst which most likely half of the people I buy my bread, groceries, etc...

              Well, that attitude, which I've seen a lot in recent weeks, sickens me. It is closed-minded, it is not representative of properly working democracy, it is not a love of freedom of ideas. It is villification of people who may have different ideas. It is hatred. Yes, the world is becoming more complex, and some people can't understand it well, and the does drive people to vote for poor candidates sometimes. But it also drives other people to compartmentalize people into specific ideological camps where "they" are bad and "we" are good and we must defeat them. It leads to nothing good. If our world is becoming more complex, we must learn not to villify those whom we disagree with, but to deal with them in some manner that won't just fracture society even more. Whether it's hating them, killing them, or looking upon them with disgust and disdain, it is counterproductive at best, unless more hatred between ideological groups is what you want.

              Maybe I am especially sensitive to this because in the US, I am villified because I want to end federal welfare, make abortion illegal, increase military spending, etc. Many people think I am evil scum for my beliefs, and it is sickening. Most of these people purport to love diversity and different ideas, but they lie. They hate what is different, and it is disgusting to me. The rare person I meet who completely disagrees with me but still respects me and accepts that I think differently, that's the person who warms my heart. I could very easily think that people who favor legal abortions are evil people who want to allow us to kill babies. But I realize two things: first, they look at it differently than me, and that doesn't make them evil, even if I think the idea is evil; second, treating them as though they are evil, or even thinking they are evil, or hating them for their beliefs, will not in any way benefit me, them, or society.

              Again, I don't mind the hating of the ideas. I hate lots of ideas. I don't even want you to accept my ideas, whatever they are. I want you to accept that I have them, that I have good reason for them, that I am not the same as you are, that you won't change me, and I won't change you, and that our goal is to find a way to peacefully coexist, even if that means peacefully coexisting with people who want to kill babies, or Jews, or Muslims, or blacks. I daresay we should even love all of these people.

              Make no mistake: the most important emphasis between peoples now, and for the forseeable future, are ideological. That Arab guy I work with is a "good" Arab because he doesn't hate America. His skin color doesn't matter anymore, it's what he thinks that matters. His beliefs matter. I'd like to see our world as accepting of people who have ideological differences as they are of people with sexual or racial differences. I'd like to see the fake frienship (hey, you gotta start somewhere) we extend to our black neighbor extended to our Jehovah's Witness neighbor, our Republican neighbor, our vegan neighbor. If we want to make society better for the future, the frontier is not in opening or closing our borders to people who look differently than we do. It's the ones who think differently, not look differently, who will make the difference.

              Well, I am sure I've said enough at this point. If I continue this last line of thought too much further, I'll begin to sound like Jon Katz.

              • I agree with you on a number of points here (and elsewhere), but I think there are a number of nuances to be made.

                To begin with, keep in mind that in Europe the WWII trauma is still very much alive. Even a young guy like me (25) knows first hand accounts from the war. My family is not part of any minority that was specifically targetted by nazism, but nevertheless many of my family members were killed or tortured by the nazis. My grandparents and my great-grandparents were part of the first wave of

                --

                -- Robin Berjon [berjon.com]

                • No, I did not distinguish between hatred and anger, but I do think I see the difference, and I do think I've seen a lot of the hatred I've mentioned. And I agree with you: I won't weep for "Nazis" who are killed. What I weep for is what that assassination means, what effects it will have on everyone else, how it will shape society. It won't be positive.

                  And that's the second time this week, in two completely different contexts, that I've been called a postmodernist. Hmmm. ;-) Regardless, I just saw the
              • I felt literally sick going out this morning and knowing that 1 personne out 8 I would see in the street voted for a fascist ... amongst which most likely half of the people I buy my bread, groceries, etc...

                Well, that attitude, which I've seen a lot in recent weeks, sickens me. It is closed-minded, it is not representative of properly working democracy, it is not a love of freedom of ideas. It is villification of people who may have different ideas. It is hatred.

                It's not hatred, it's just that I fel

                --
                mirod
                • I don't feel hate for le pen voters, I feel sorry, I feel they are dumb and I feel they are beyond reasoning: I don't feel like talking nice to them and trying to convince them they were wrong. Basically I just don't want to live in the same country as them.

                  Maybe that's hate, maybe it isn't. I don't know. But in my view, it's unhealthy for society, as per what I wrote about how we need to get along with people who think differently than we do.
                  • we need to get along with people who think differently than we do.

                    I have no problem getting along with people who actually think. Too bad this does not include people who voted for le pen.

                    OK, that was a joke. And I'll stop here. I think our difference boils down to the fact that you always want to convince people of your ideas, or at least discuss them (then convince them ;--), while I really prefer to live and let live. The result is that when something like neo-nazi vote comes along you are still re

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                    mirod
                    • Actually, no, I don't want to convince people of my ideas. I spent some significant time describing that in my lengthy post of last night. I don't even need to discuss it with them, if they are unwilling or unable. I do prefer to live and let live, if that is what it comes down to. You don't appear to want to live and let live, though, you seem to prefer to want to live and let live "away from me." That's not what I think of as "live and let live."

                      Aside from the fact that you don't know the reasons wh
              • Maybe I am especially sensitive to this because in the US, I am villified because I want to end federal welfare, make abortion illegal, increase military spending, etc. Many people think I am evil scum for my beliefs, and it is sickening. Most of these people purport to love diversity and different ideas, but they lie.

                Welcome to the club, pudge! :)

                They hate what is different, and it is disgusting to me. The rare person I meet who completely disagrees with me but still respects me and accepts that I

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                J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers