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Re: Any number large enough 19 Comments More | Login | Reply /

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  • There's no evidence that universal health care is a good thing; indeed, there is more hard evidence against it than for it, as it tends to screw an economy, hurt jobs, decrease the average quality of care, and thereby lower the overall national "well being."

    Where is your hard evidence to support the above statement? In the absence of such evidence I guess you are stating an opinion as well.

    The reports I have seen indicate that the United States spends more as a percent of GDP than Canada and yet leav

    • Yes, more is spent here, but mostly in private dollars, which helps the economy as a whole (as well as provides a greater quality of care, which you somewhat concede to). I am not sure how a high percentage of GDP makes it bad for the economy, unless it is the government spending all that money, which it isn't.

      I am not saying the U.S. is necessarily better than Canada, although I prefer our system. I am talking about broader principles, e.g. private vs. public dollars and the impact on the economy. Our

      • I never would. :-)

        I knew that was too good a setup to ignore. ;)

        Yes, more is spent here, but mostly in private dollars, which helps the economy as a whole (as well as provides a greater quality of care, which you somewhat concede to). I am not sure how a high percentage of GDP makes it bad for the economy, unless it is the government spending all that money, which it isn't.

        Perhaps I am being slow, but a dollar spent is a dollar spent is it not? What does it matter if it is a private citizen versus

        • Perhaps I am being slow, but a dollar spent is a dollar spent is it not? What does it matter if it is a private citizen versus a government agency that is doing the spending?

          There's several problems. First, if the government pays for it, *I* am paying for it, whether I want to or not, which hurts the market and drags on the economy. Second, the government always sets some sort of price controls, whether explicit or implicit, which hurts the market. Third, the government is usually less efficient, not j

          • I can't agree. I can't see how it is "best" to -- to pick an extreme example, but you speak in absolutes, so it is fitting -- spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to do a quadruple heart bypass for a deathly overweight 90-year-old homeless person. If a deathly overweight 90-year-old person has the money to pay for that themselves, fine, but it is insane to posit that we should spend all that public money on someone in that condition.

            That is a lovely straw man there.

            If performing the heart bypass me

            • That is a lovely straw man there.

              Rubbish. I took what you said to its logical conclusion. You can feel free to amend what you said, but don't attack *me* for taking your words at face value.

              If performing the heart bypass means another patient more suitable for the procedure (ie younger, healthier, etc) cannot receive the same treatment then that is not acceptable.

              No, that would hold true for a transplant. For a bypass, it is not about availability, it is about cost.

              But otherwise it should be perf
              • Rubbish. I took what you said to its logical conclusion. You can feel free to amend what you said, but don't attack *me* for taking your words at face value.

                Here is what I said:

                In the end, the best health care system would be one that provides the best possible care to all that require it, regardless of economic standing. I think neither the Canadian or the American system would pass that simple test and perhaps no single system could. Tradeoffs are necessary.
                First explain how that is speaking in absolutes. Second show me where I say that the best health care system should '...spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to do a quadruple heart bypass for a deathly overweight 90-year-old homeless person.' I guess "best possible care" is open to interpretation but it always meant in my mind that you provide the best possible care provided it doesn't cost someone else similar care who is more deserving/suitable.
                No, that would hold true for a transplant. For a bypass, it is not about availability, it is about cost.

                I will say that if the only reason for not doing the bypass is the cost then that is not an acceptable reason. Which leads to your next statement:

                And I can't see how it is NOT insane to take the public's money and use it to very temporarily prolong the life of someone who will die soon anyway.

                Which would seem to be ignoring what I said here:

                If the homeless man is not suitable for the operation due to other health concerns it should not be performed.
                IE it should not be performed if he is going to die soon anyway. Personally I would prefer to leave that decision to the doctors. But simply saying that he is old and so will die soon is not good enough.
                Death is a fact of life. We should not do everything possible to avoid it, especially when it means spending the public's money.

                Agreed, but I think we should do everything reasonably possible to avoid it. Feel free to define reasonably possible as you wish, as will I.

                No. I am saying there are limits to what the government should pay for, and I gave one pretty clear example.

                I agree that there should be limits, and I have never said there should not be. Our limits are obviously different however.

                Please don't be deceptive. What you mean is that you are perfectly willing to use the government to force everyone to pay higher taxes. If it were just about what you were paying, you could give your money to charities devoted to such purposes. This is not about what you are willing to pay, it is about your willingness to take money from other people.

                First off, how do you know what I do and do not give to charities? Of course the need for charities devoted to 'such purposes' is considerably less when the government provides for the people in need of the charities' services.

                In actual fact, I meant what I said. I am personally willing to pay higher taxes. I then extrapolate from that to assume that my fellow Canadian citizens are also willing to do so. If my fellow citizens decide that they are not happy paying higher taxes then they will vote in a government that will privatize health care. I will then have more money, due to lower taxes of course, to donate to the charities that will be necessary to help the people who cannot afford privatized health care.

                You are very quick to tell me about my willingness to take money from other people when all I have said is I am willing to pay higher taxes.

                You don't pay taxes?

                Ha! You got me. You are of course right that my tax dollars are what paid for those services. So my question is if the only difference is I pay taxes to pay for my health care and you pay an insurance company and/or hospital for your health care, then what is the difference? We both spend money to receive a service.

                • First explain how that is speaking in absolutes.

                  No. You explain how "best possible care to all that require it" is *not* absolute.

                  IE it should not be performed if he is going to die soon anyway.

                  We're all going to die soon.

                  Personally I would prefer to leave that decision to the doctors.

                  Not when it's my money involved, no.

                  I agree that there should be limits, and I have never said there should not be.

                  You mentioned only one limit: where that care would prevent someone else more "worthy" of gettin

                  • No. You explain how "best possible care to all that require it" is *not* absolute.

                    In the end, the best health care system would be one that provides the best possible care to all that require it, regardless of economic standing. I think neither the Canadian or the American system would pass that simple test and perhaps no single system could. Tradeoffs are necessary.

                    Isn't context a wonderful thing?

                    We're all going to die soon.

                    So why perform bypass surgery for anyone? What's the point?

                    You me

                    • So why perform bypass surgery for anyone? What's the point?

                      You answer that, since you're the one who said "he's going to die soon" is the reason he should not get treatment.

                      Read what I wrote again: ... If the homeless man is not suitable for the operation due to other health concerns it should not be performed.

                      But that does not apply. There's nothing wrong with the surgery, and if it can be paid for, there's no reason not to do it (unlike a transplant).

                      Explain to me how you can take this to mean I

                    • You answer that, since you're the one who said "he's going to die soon" is the reason he should not get treatment.

                      I have already done so: I would personally leave it up to the medical professionals to determine the approximate lifespan left to the patient.

                      But that does not apply. There's nothing wrong with the surgery, and if it can be paid for, there's no reason not to do it (unlike a transplant).

                      I completely agree. If there's nothing wrong with the surgery it should be done. You are the one that ca

                    • I have already done so: I would personally leave it up to the medical professionals to determine the approximate lifespan left to the patient.

                      So you retract your previous statement that the 90-year-old homeless person should not get the surgery. OK.

                      I completely agree. If there's nothing wrong with the surgery it should be done.

                      I didn't say that. I said it should be done if it can be paid for.

                      You are the one that came up with the straw man of a deathly overweight homeless man

                      YKUTWIDNTIMWYTIM.

                      I

                    • So you retract your previous statement that the 90-year-old homeless person should not get the surgery. OK.

                      You should work on your reading comprehension.

                      Wow. "I will agree that the minority of people are being forced, but how can you say it is forced?" I dunno, how can YOU say it is forced?

                      Ok, fine then. Any democratic system forces the will of majority on the minority.

                      You can't reasonably compare the two systems in simplistic terms like percentage of GDP, because they are too different.

                      Then how

                    • You should work on your reading comprehension.

                      Riiiiight. You didn't say, "it should not be performed if he is going to die soon anyway." Gotcha.

                      Oh wait, yes you did!

                      Never mind.

                      Any democratic system forces the will of majority on the minority.

                      Yes, but in most cases that will is not expressed against the individual so directly as actually going in and taking something that belongs to you.

                      Then how do you compare them?

                      In terms of raw dollars spent? You don't. You can compare them in terms of lib
                    • The bottom line is that I am still waiting for some hard evidence proving that universal health care screws the economy, hurts jobs, decreases the average quality of care, and the overall national "well being."
                    • When you keep asking for what has already been provided, you just make yourself look like a tool.
                    • Your definition of hard evidence is interesting. I envy your self confidence.
                    • You yourself conceded that there is hard evidence of decreased care quality in Canada, in your very first post, and now you say no such evidence exists? I envy your ... well, no, I don't.

                    • The bottom line is that I am still waiting for some hard evidence proving that universal health care screws the economy, hurts jobs, decreases the average quality of care, and the overall national "well being."

                      There are problems with the Canadian system, including wait times and a lack of specialized equipment.

                      Once again your definition of hard evidence is interesting if you include a statement of opinion from someone who would readily admit to not being fully informed. My opinion is based on report

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