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NOTE: use Perl; is on undef hiatus. You can read content, but you can't post it. More info will be forthcoming forthcomingly.

All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • Perl 6 was a precondition for modern Perl.

    • I bet that assertion would meet anything from full agreement to full disagreement among Perl 5 people. Doesn't say much about its truth content, of course.

      But I wouldn't put it past the Perl 5 people to invent things like Moose and the testing culture even without Perl 6 doing experiments at the front lines. Maybe in a hypothetical parallel universe where Perl 6 never existed, they'd have chosen to be inspired by the good parts of Haskell or Python or Ruby (or other languages with good parts) instead.

      • Maybe in a hypothetical parallel universe where Perl 6 never existed....

        Only the solipsists among us can do anything other than theorize over what might have happened if or if not. What happened happened. Immature poets imitate and mature poets steal -- in part because mature poets have no trouble crediting their inspirations.

        • Only the solipsists among us can do anything other than theorize over what might have happened if or if not. What happened happened. Immature poets imitate and mature poets steal -- in part because mature poets have no trouble crediting their inspirations.

          Right. Just saying that there's a qualitative distinction between "Perl 6 inspired modern Perl" and "Perl 6 was a precondition for modern Perl."

          • I see no distinction. You might as well say "Without Perl 6, we'd have modern Perl anyway!" as "Without Perl 6, we'd have flying cars by now!" Absent a time machine, empiricism doesn't work that way.

            • By the same reasoning, how can you be so certain that Perl 6 was a precondition for modern Perl? There can't be any evidence that modern Perl wouldn't have happened in one form or another if Perl 6 didn't exist.

              Maybe there is simply a misunderstanding of the meaning of "precondition" in this context.

              --
              Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley
              • There can't be any evidence that modern Perl wouldn't have happened in one form or another if Perl 6 didn't exist.

                I pay little attention to that hypothetical situation because we live in a world where Perl 6 does exist. My assertion is that it's easy to demonstrate how Perl 6 inspired, influenced, and instigated many parts of modern Perl: make a list of features of modern Perl, figure out who started them and why, and correlate those to the development of Perl 6.

                I already mentioned testing. Consider Moo

                • It's just that "inspiration", "influence" and "instigation" are something different than "precondition". That's at least my impression as a non-native English speaker.

                  --
                  Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley
                  • Certainly there's a touch of tautology in my original statement, but that makes it no less true. We can't know what might have arisen in a world without Perl 6, but we can say that a relentless expunging of every influence of Perl 6 in the Perl 5 ecosystem would cripple modern Perl as we understand it now.

                    I could speculate as to whether Perl circa 2010 in that hypothetical universe would be better, worse, or different from as we understand it now, but I won't. What happened happened, and many of those hap

      • Moose is definitely attributable to Perl 6, but didn't the testing culture predate it?

        --
        J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
        • Schwern wrote Test::Simple and then Test::More as part of an overhaul of Perl 5 testing to prepare for Perl 6; he was the chair of the Perl QA working group formed as part of the Perl 6 working groups. I extracted Test::Builder from both at Schwern's suggestion.

          • I see. I absolutely did not realize this! Thank you for helping me see this additional debt Perl 5 owes to 6.

            I also didn't realize you were responsible for Test::Builder; I thought that was all Schwern.

            --
            J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
    • I agree, and I'm a Fiver.

      --
      J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
  • Personally, I argued that they were two different languages in 2007 [perl.org]. I thought pretty much everyone agreed other than trolls I reference in that post who seemed to be using the long wait for Perl 6 as an excuse to troll Perl. (You do not in any way appear to be among those.)

    I can say that today I suspect I will be a Sixer at some point. I don't know when.

    Meanwhile, I learned Rose::DB::Object the other day. So much fun, and there are so many great things going on.

    --
    J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
    • As a fairly entrenched Sixer, I might have a slightly warped perspective on the "different languages" thing. As long as it felt like a criticism and a threat of community fracturing, I was less inclined to agree. Also, as long as the two statements "Perl 6 isn't Perl 5" and "Perl 6 isn't Perl" were equivalent in the minds of people, it was difficult for me as a Sixer to agree.

      Now both of these things have changed. The community didn't fracture, it just shifted into people doing Serious Production stuff and

      • Yes, the tuning fork analogy you use here clarifies the community issue for me immensely. I'm not on the Six branch of the tuning fork, though it has started to look somewhat attractive as of this year.

        I can't say that I ever would have argued that "Perl 6 isn't Perl." I hope not. I read through the IRC log on your old post and found my blood boiling somewhat at the confusion behind those assertions. Perl 5 doesn't have an exclusive claim to the Perl name.

        --
        J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
        • Blood has been boiling, and I'm glad we've collectively found ways to make it not boil anymore. An outright intra-Perl tribal war -- and we seem to have turned away from that path by now -- would have been wasteful, probably ugly, and doubtless sad.

          • I want to clarify that what made my blood boil was the suggestion was that Perl 5 was Perl and Perl 6 was not Perl. I hope that was obvious and I hope you realized that, but just in case you or anyone else reading did not, I wanted to state it explicitly.

            I don't believe any Sixer has ever made my blood boil, other than that idiot jdavidb who jumped into the Perl 6 RFC process ten years ago without knowing what he was doing when he really had no business "helping." But he quickly realized he didn't know wh

            --
            J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
  • Perl 5 and Perl 6 are different but share the same spirit :) "Tradition is not holding onto the ashes but passing on the flame" (Sir Thomas More)
  • ... and "same" too.

    It's not a binary decision, if you ask me.