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  • Did you know that the display of sigs can be disabled ?

    I'd be happy to discuss this, and I even understand the words "litmus test", but, being unfamiliar with the US political system, I don't know what a court nominee actually is and what role he has in voting or amending laws.

    Besides this, I've already explained my opinion somewhere : a law is not necessarily a bad law even if it's morally wrong or repelling. It's a bad law when it fails to help citizens. The point is : does abortion help citizens ? If so,

    • I don't want abortion to be made illegal, because this won't prevent efficiently illegal abortions -- this will only make them more dangerous.

      If we are to say that abortion is the taking of an innocent human life (that is, the subjugation of one human's rights by another), how is this different from, "I don't want slavery to be made illegal, because this won't prevent efficiently illegal enslavements -- this will only make them more dangerous"? Or s/abortion/$insert_crime_here/?

      I am not asking anyone to agree with me that abortion is killing babies. I am quite convinced that it is, though, and as such I am logically compelled to push for it being made illegal, just as I would be compelled to for slavery, murder, or any other total subjugation of someone's human rights.

      To frame it in terms of practicality, or safety of the mothers, or choice, makes no sense in light of how I (and others) see "legalized" abortion: as the oppression of a whole class of human beings. Even if abortions are not performed, it is an atrocity merely that abortions are legal, because it is condoning this complete subjugation of these human beings.

      Again, I am not asking anyone to agree with me. But you must see, if you care about understanding the various views, that many people in this country will never see any compromise in this; we will never be satisfied with making abortions "legal, safe, and rare," anymore than we would have been satisified with making slavery such. The anti-slavery movement was called the abolitionist movement because they saw that slavery was an absolute affront to humanity. Abortion is no different, except that it is worse, being that they are not enslaved, but killed; not having any power, but entirely defenseless; not merely stripped of some rights, but of all humanity.

      I played games with my baby, while she was still in the womb, in her second trimester. I'd poke her, she'd poke back. We communicated. And it was legal for me and my wife to have her killed. That is absolutely disgusting. It cheapens us all, just by virtue of it being legal.

      OK, maybe I am asking people to agree with me. But even if you don't, you should understand that the abortion issue, like the slavery issue, will never, ever, go away until abortion is illegal.
      • You are pointing out the only place in my post where my personal opinion slipped through. This wasn't intended, sorry.

        You should understand that the abortion issue, like the slavery issue, will never, ever, go away until abortion is illegal. Not true. Replace "never, ever" by "never in the next 150 years in the U.S.A." and I'll agree -- you can't guess beyond that scope. Abortion (like slavery, death penalty, homosexuality, polygamy, ritual murder of widows, cannibalism, and other things that may or may n

        • No, I can say never, absolutely. The death penalty, as well. These are distinct from homosexuality and polygamy, because abortion and the death penalty have to do with essential human liberties of an oppressed people. The issue absolutely will not go away. Of course, the death penalty is different because those people are not innocent (ideally), but still, it strikes at the heart of what it means to be a human being. Issues like that never go away until the side of liberty wins. I cannot think of any
      • > the abortion issue, like the slavery issue, will
        > never, ever, go away until abortion is illegal.

        or maybe when birth control is so easy and perfect that nobody ever has children unless they want them. It would also be nice if all new parents had at least as much preparation as we require of new drivers or gun owners.


        • No, it won't go away in that case. As I already said, the very notion that it is *legal* to abort my child, with whom I am communicating, with whom I am playing, is an affront to humanity. Whether or not anyone is being aborted, if it is legal to abort that life, that means that we are devaluing that life, and it is not acceptable.

          It would be great if there were no unwanted pregnancies. But it wouldn't make the problem go away, because these principles, how we define life and humanity, how we codify the
          • I'm with pudge there. A society might allow slavery and have no slaves -- this doesn't solve the problem that slavery is still legal in it. The problem is how we define life and humanity. Three centuries ago, black people were not, to most occidentals, humans, and thus slavery was morally acceptable for them. Now that child mortality is very low, our society learned to view humans in little children, but this doesn't extend to foetuses, not for everyone at least, mainly because a foetus is not an independe

          • In that case, your "as long as abortion is legal" could be ammended to "as long as abortion is legal and there are those who believe it should be legal" because making it illegal today would not put end end to the dispute. There are very many who would be quite upset were that to happen.

            I'm not trying to take sides here, just pointing out that outlawing abortion may be a necessary condition for 'making the issue go away' (your opinion, and many others' opinion) but it is not sufficient. So long as there ar
            • outlawing abortion may be a necessary condition for 'making the issue go away' ... but it is not sufficient

              I never meant to imply otherwise.

              There are those who feel that abortion must be a legal option, and for them, the legalization of abortion is a necessary condition for 'making the issue go away'.

              People felt that way about a lot of human rights issues in the past. They eventually got over them, for the most part. There are still people who believe in slavery, but we mostly took care of that such