Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
NOTE: use Perl; is on undef hiatus. You can read content, but you can't post it. More info will be forthcoming forthcomingly.

All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More | Login | Reply
Loading... please wait.
  • "I need this one thing so everyone else must need it too. What kind of shitty framework doesn't include this thing?!"

    For the record, I have no use for that thing whatsoever, and I'm glad Catalyst doesn't build it in. I'm also glad Catalyst has a plugin system that lets people put something on CPAN that _you_ can use if you want to.

    • http://chrislaco.com/articles/mvc-marathon/ [chrislaco.com]

      On the other hand. When people need to start projects and they're looking into which Framework to use, the posters issues and your response are some of the same reasons people stop choosing or looking at Perl.

      I love Perl and the Cat folks. But sometimes, the " lets make no decisions or include no requirements by default because everyone wants a different thing" is off putting at best.

      As sucky as we say RoR, or Django, or CakePHP are for being inflexible, they becam

      • But is the fix to jam all this stuff in Catalyst?

        Maybe the fix is to make a super duper CatalystX::CRUD thingy, market the hell out of it, and recommend it to the new users.

        Meanwhile, people like me, who want to get shit done in our own way don't have to deal with ripping out 100k of scaffolding that the opinionated framework stuck in our app when we said "catalyst.pl MyApp".

        I do agree, being newbie friendly is very important. But that's more a question of marketing and and having something available. That something doesn't have to the core tool.

        • I was pretty sure I'd suffer some flames for it because Perl programmers (me included) do not like to hear bad things and whenever someone says "this is bad", it automatically becomes "no, you suck!" and in most cases it's correct but this isn't a simple dichotomous situation in which either the framework/language is wrong or the user/programmer is wrong.

          I don't think Catalyst should have default scaffolding or even built-in scaffolding. I think the Catalyst programmers have much more important things to
          • You needed to blow off steam, but you are upset that some steam was blown back?

            I agree, the docs for Catalyst need serious work. I think having a super slick scaffolding tool for Catalyst would be great, as long as it wasn't something I had to work _around_ as a Catalyst user.

            The thing about scaffolding is that it's very cool for new users, and absolutely useless for many people doing "real" apps (for some value of real).

            • You needed to blow off steam, but you are upset that some steam was blown back?

              Alright, fair enough. I apologize for that.

              I actually have very little complaints toward the Catalyst docs. Usually when I need to ask something with Catalyst, the docs clear it up for me. My docs "complaint" was towards plugins and additions people made, unless that's what you meant, in which case you're right.

              I think having a super slick scaffolding tool for Catalyst would be great, as long as it wasn't something I had to work _around_ as a Catalyst user.

              The thing about scaffolding is that it's very cool for new users, and absolutely useless for many people doing "real" apps (for some value of real).

              Obviously if scaffolding would be automatic and built it, that would definitely be annoying. Having to delete it every time (like I have to arrange the controller POD every time I create a new contro

        • I do agree, being newbie friendly is very important. But that's more a question of marketing and and having something available.

          It's 2009. Why can't Perl have good defaults by now?

          • I'm not sure what "good defaults" means. Scaffolding is not a good default if you don't need scaffolding.

            And I was talking about Catalyst, not Perl. Yes, Perl (the core) could use better defaults. Catalyst is fine the way it is (well, it needs lots of changes but not wholesale addition of huge features for a small audience).

            • If Catalyst is the preferred web framework for new Perl projects in 2009, it either needs good defaults such that novices can pick it up and start to be productive without having to make several technical choices they're not necessarily qualified to make, or it needs a very clear explanation that it's not for novices.

              It's perfectly fine to say "Catalyst is a platform for experts who can assemble their own frameworks for themselves." It's not acceptable to say "Catalyst is the right place to start for every

          • Because nobody wrote them, or thought about them more than just "I need this now, can we add it?"

            I've been writing much more docs (for other projects, that is) in the past than I am now. I wonder if the large number of "Your docs are crap! I _shouldn't_ have to work this hard to understand it!" has anything to do with it. Sure, people _shouldn't_ have to worry about some things. But why should I worry? I have no gain from it. I already have the software.

            Besides, it is often forgotten that the integrating "P

            --
            Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley
            • Besides, it is often forgotten that the integrating "Patches welcome" methodology just works.

              I've written a few patches myself.

              • I didn't mean to imply anything else.

                --
                Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley
                • Oh, I know. Several of those patches have gone unapplied because they change the defaults in a backwards-incompatible way.

                  The reason we can't have good defaults in Perl 5 is because we've never had good defaults in Perl 5, and why should we make things easier for new people? It's a bad reason, but it's a pervasive one.