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Patriotism 12 Comments More | Login | Reply /

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  • It's a great country to live in if you are a white person. It's a great country to live in if you are middle class (or better).

    It's not such a great country to live in if you're a person of color, though it could be worse (or better). It's not such a great country to live in if you're very poor. Though again, that could be worse and better, depending on where you look.

    And the really fucked up thing about the US has very little to do with how its own citizens are treated, but rather with how the US tre
    • I wouldn't want to be a poor peasant living Afghanistan right now, or Colombia, or Cuba, or anywhere in most of Africa, or Russia, or any of a dozen other places where US foreign policy is making an already difficult life nearly unbearable

      What are you talking about? Is it your opinion that the US is holding these countries down? Let's look at two of your examples:

      1) Africa. Not a single great nation has come out of Africa since Hannibal & Cleopatra. I'm sure Africa's "demise" had much more to do

      • Well, the American slave trade didn't exactly do any good for Africa. Nor did US support of the South African apartheid regime.

        Russia, yes, had internal problems. The cold war, explicitly designed to destroy the Russian economy, also didn't help.

        But here are a few others:

        - Iran, where we installed a dictator that served our (oil) interests. That dictator's oppression was so severe that he was overthrown by a fundamentalist Islamic regime, which has been making Iran miserable ever since. Remember, at
        • Well, the American slave trade didn't exactly do any good for Africa

          True, but then let's keep in mind that we were still Europeans when we were first dealing in the slave trade. In other words, we have plenty of company in that area.

          Nor did US support of the South African apartheid regime

          True, but then it was partially US pressure that ended it as well. I can also tell you that the American public despised the South African regime. And where does the South African government have its origins, hmmm?

          • Re:Well... (Score:1)

            by autarch (914) on 2002.02.23 10:00 (#4986) Homepage Journal
            Nicaragua, where US support of the contras led to thousands of murders

            Replace "US" with "Russian" and "contras" with "Sandinistas" and you would have an equally accurate statement.

            No, that's not true. The Sandinastas received basically no foreign aid from Russia. What they did do, because they were cut off from all trade with the US and Europe (by the US), was trade with Russia. Nothing wrong with that. The US did that through the entire cold war too.

            As to Turkey, I know why the US supports them, but that doesn't make it ok.

            Colombia - what you propose is a false dilemna. There are groups who are working for democratic change in Colombia who could use our support.

            In Cambodia, the US supported the Khmer Rouge because they (the Khmer Rouge) were fighting the Vietnamese. In fact, the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia was what finally ending the Khmer Rouge terror in Cambodia.

            This is part of a disturbing trend I'm seeing in world opinion. It seems *everything* is our fault. It's either too much, not enough, or the wrong way. We just can't do *anything* right, no matter how hard we try.

            Well, the US is not really trying to do anything right. It is trying to make sure that conditions are suitable for making lots of money from other countries' labor and natural resources. And in that sense, it has succeeded admirably.

            Well, autarch, which country are *you* from so I can tally up how *your* country has screwed up the world?

            I've lived in the US my entire life. Tally away!
            • Argentina, where the US supported Augusto Pinochet for many years.

              Actually, Pinochet was the dictator of Chile, wasn't he?

              As to Turkey, I know why the US supports them, but that doesn't make it ok

              They *are* part of NATO. You can lump most of Europe (i.e. NATO) in there right with us if we're *evil* for supporting the Turkish government.

              Colombia - what you propose is a false dilemna. There are groups who are working for democratic change in Colombia who could use our support

              It would take direct mi

              • Actually, Pinochet was the dictator of Chile, wasn't he?

                Yep, you're right. Brain fart. Same point, different country.

                They *are* part of NATO. You can lump most of Europe (i.e. NATO) in there right with us if we're *evil* for supporting the Turkish government.

                I do lump them in with that. Western Europe has long been a supporting player in US malfeasance abroad, though they often draw the line a bit sooner, though England usually toes the US line the longest.

                It would take direct military support
                • However, I do think that the US, in the post-WWII period, has been the single most malevalent player in world politics.

                  Perhaps. It's also been the single greatest benefactor.
                  • Bwah hah hah ha!

                    I think you'll find that, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, the balance comes down heavily weighted on the 'malevolent' side.

                    But the Marshall Plan was really good. Thanks for that.
                    • That's clearly false. Many people even in your own country agree that the benevolent side outweighs the rest, if you choose to attempt to balance it. *shrug* Sure, you and autarch believe otherwise. But please don't pretend that means the rest of the world agrees with you.
                    • I think you may be confusing "Being nice to the US because it's carrying a really big stick." and "Being nice to the US because it's genuinely doing good things in the world."
                    • I think you may be confusing your opinion with the world's.
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