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All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • It's so easy to knock down straw men. Kinda fun sometimes, too.

    If only I had known that that liberals are driven by "wishful thinking" and and "the notion that we can make life on Earth perfect" and "[maybe] we can all have a Star Trek like existence". Gosh, even though I've never met a single liberal who espouses such a view, clearly you, Pudge, the Champion of Truth and Light, have revealed to me the Way. Never again shall I be so shallow as to believe that differences in core values might lead people to different political viewpoints. Instead, it's mere naivité and having read too many fantasy books as a child which has driven America's liberals for so long.

    For what it's worth, before I hit this bit, I thought you sounded rational. As for your character assassination of all liberals (I guess that would make it character genocide, eh?), yes there are some people who would fit your description. You can easily chum the waters by tossing them out there but I could just as easily make up my personal view of conservatives which is equally as ridiculous.

    I stopped listening to the podcast after that. It was clear there wasn't much point.

    • It's so easy to knock down straw men. Kinda fun sometimes, too.

      Sorry, try again. Actually, YOU are the one with the straw man here.

      If only I had known that that liberals are driven by "wishful thinking" and and "the notion that we can make life on Earth perfect" and "[maybe] we can all have a Star Trek like existence".

      I didn't say that. Listen again. I said it is a core part of the motive of MANY liberals. Not liberals in general.

      Gosh, even though I've never met a single liberal who espouses such a view
      • Agreed that you didn't say "all liberals". My apologies. However, you presented the viewpoint of what describe as "many liberals" and you quite failed to make it clear that this is a minority viewpoint. Instead, you presented a viewpoint that is clearly your own, you mocked it ("Star Trek like existence"?), and used a minority opinion -- one I don't hear -- as a contrast to conservative opinion. You might think it's fair to contrast a minority opinion with what you clearly view as the rational conservat

        • Agreed that you didn't say "all liberals". My apologies. However, you presented the viewpoint of what describe as "many liberals" and you quite failed to make it clear that this is a minority viewpoint.

          Excuse me for not being perfect. I guess my own lack of perfection is part of why I don't believe in the possibility of immanentizing the eschaton. :-) If I had gone deeply into it, I surely would have made that point, but I quickly moved on to another aspect of the topic.

          Also consider the context: I just g
          • So to contrast this, I could make the following statement:

            Many conservatives are racist bastards who feel that non-white people are less intelligent than white people and are genetically predisposed to commit crime. Liberals, quite rightly, reject this notion.

            One problem with that statement is that I've now lumped all liberals in the same category. I doubt that many liberals would agree with the "many conservatives" viewpoint I present, but I'm sure that some do. However, my statement about conservat

            • So to contrast this, I could make the following statement:

              Yes.

              One problem with that statement is that I've now lumped all liberals in the same category. I doubt that many liberals would agree with the "many conservatives" viewpoint I present, but I'm sure that some do.

              Yes, but that is not a problem with the statement I made, I believe. Racism and liberalism are not mutually exclusive (although certainly, liberalism in America tends to reject it). But the possibility of "immanentizing the eschaton" is, I b
                • But why compare non-pervasive ridiculous notions in the first place?

                  I was asked the question of whether liberalism is driven by wishful thinking. I said for some liberals, it is. I didn't come up with the question, and I answered it truthfully.

                  The fact that someone is liberal or conservative does not make them more or less likely to hold ridiculous views.

                  Yes ... and?

                  But either way, neither conservatives nor liberals (nor anarchists nor people of any other political view) are in any way protected from stup
                    • Reasonable liberals disgree with that just as much as you and others who hold to your ideology do.

                      Yes, and?

                      Your ideology is irrelevant.

                      Of course it's not: I am the one criticizing the belief in question, and doing it from my perspective.

                      Failing to point this out creates the impression that you want to causally relate holding to your ideology to the rejection of wishful thinking.

                      No, it does not. You obviously incorrectly infer that, but that impression was not created by me.
                • But why compare non-pervasive ridiculous notions in the first place?

                  Because that's what the question asked in the first place.

                  --
                  J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
        • Perhaps a better wording would have been "a significant number of liberals" instead of "many liberals."

          Instead, you presented a viewpoint that is clearly your own, you mocked it ("Star Trek like existence"?)

          Have you listened to Ask Pudge episode 1? Because one of the questions was this [slashdot.org]. So in the full context of Ask Pudge, the whole "Star Trek post economy, everyone's needs could be filled if we'd just abandon capitalism/conservatism/greed" has been referenced before and is being referenced again.

          --
          J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
          • Well, I certainly wouldn't say that many conservatives are motivated by fear. In fact, I don't think the neo-cons who've hijacked (in my opinion) the conservative party are motivated by fear. (Like many, I feel they find fear is a great tool for public manipulation). So no, I don't think the comparison is unfair for this reason.

            And for the record, my general opinion of what I view as "true" conservatives tends to be people who think that smaller government works better and the government should be stay

            • And for the record, my general opinion of what I view as "true" conservatives tends to be people who think that smaller government works better and the government should be staying the hell out of people's lives unless absolutely necessary. That's a viewpoint I have a lot of sympathy for. It's not a viewpoint that the current administration seems to share.

              You and I are in complete agreement on that. Which is why I've basically exited the Republican Party. Of course, my belief in small government event

              --
              J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
            • To clarify previous post, you and I are in complete definition over that definition of conservatism. I don't think we're in complete agreement in both accepting that as our own personal viewpoint, because I don't think (but could be wrong) that it's your viewpoint.

              Yet. ;)

              --
              J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
              • The problem I have with some conservatives is the same problem I have with some Christians. Basically, what they preach and what they practice aren't the same thing. This is hypocricy. Frankly, I don't mind a little hypocricy now and then so long as the practitioner is willing to admit the error of their ways and tries to be better. However, when they refuse to admit they are wrong, I have strong issues with this. Unfortunately, while these might be minority positions, they seem to have had a dispropor

                • The problem I have with some conservatives is the same problem I have with some Christians. Basically, what they preach and what they practice aren't the same thing. This is hypocricy.

                  So the problem you have with some conservatives and some Christians is the same problem you have some people. :-)

                  Unfortunately, while these might be minority positions, they seem to have had a disproportionately strong effect on the US political process.

                  On the left wing of the political process, too.

                  What Jesus did, with that
                    • Oh ho. That they strain out the gnat and swallow the fly was no such criticism?

                      Correct, it was not.

                      He condemned them many times for aguing the letter of the law, and in niggling detail no less, while simultaneously disregarding the spirit. Rotten graves, beautiful on the outside…

                      Yes. None of this was criticism of the fact that they enforced their religious beliefs on the community. It was criticism of how they did it, not that they did it.
                    • I think I can find examples to contradict what pudge said, but I don't think the example you gave qualifies. Letter of the law/spirit of the law is orthogonal to the issue of whether or not you impose the law on anyone else. So is hypocrisy.

                      --
                      J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
                • Everything you just said sounds like it could've come straight out of my mouth. My wife and I talk about this all the time. We believe God specifically prohibits Christians from governing others. (And the maximum penalty church government can impose is putting people out of the church.) I use the phrase "right to sin" a lot, with the same logic you do: God gives us the right to sin. God believes in the right to sin.

                  Frankly, I don't mind a little hypocricy now and then so long as the practitioner is

                  --
                  J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
                  • I will never vote for a politician again. All politicians assert their right to govern over people regardless of consent. As a Christian I can't support this, and even if I were not a Christian it would violate self-ownership.

                    Then do not complain. You have no right to complain if you are not participating in the process to improve it, to protect your own rights. The cost of having liberty is eternal vigilance to defend that liberty, and if you don't do that, you get what you deserve: slavery.

                    At least, tha
                    • It's not about complaining. It's about persuading people that they don't have the moral authority to rule over one another, even if they vote on it. And I will continue to say so.

                      --
                      J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
                    • Incidentally, I'm still casting ballots. I'm just not voting for any politicians. I'm voting against referendum measures, and voting "none of the above," "other," or writein against every single candidate running. I'd like for a majority of people to discover they have no right to rule others, either, and join me. Elections are never won by true majorities since that many people rarely vote. I think every registered voter who doesn't show up ought to count as a "no" or "none of the above" vote, to make

                      --
                      J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
                    • It's not about complaining. It's about persuading people that they don't have the moral authority to rule over one another, even if they vote on it. And I will continue to say so.

                      But you're not doing anything.
                    • I'd like for a majority of people to discover they have no right to rule others, either, and join me.

                      First you'd have to throw out the Constitution. Good luck with that.

                      Elections are never won by true majorities since that many people rarely vote. I think every registered voter who doesn't show up ought to count as a "no" or "none of the above" vote, to make it obvious.

                      Except that's not logical. Our system has never been based on the notion that a majority of citizens should support something, only that a
                    • Sure I am. I'm teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a far more effective way to combat every problem people want to solve with government. And as I understand that Gospel, abandoning any claims we have of the right to govern each other is essential.

                      From a secular point of view, persuading people to relinquish this claim is also the way to eventual success. You cannot achieve a society that doesn't believe it has a right to vote on each other's affairs by voting. I saw a comment recently from

                      --
                      J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
            • Well, I certainly wouldn't say that many conservatives are motivated by fear. In fact, I don't think the neo-cons who've hijacked (in my opinion) the conservative party are motivated by fear.

              For what it's worth, 99 percent of the time someone says this, they are wrong. Neoconservatives are a tiny minority of the GOP, though a few of them are in positions of power. A neoconservative is a specific type of conservative, charaterized primarily by their liberalism. People like Kristol and Podhoretz, whose fat