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NOTE: use Perl; is on undef hiatus. You can read content, but you can't post it. More info will be forthcoming forthcomingly.

All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

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  • I don't mean to be a troll or anything like that and I haven't really looked at the how the Perl 6 syntax has evolved over the years.

    So, out of curiosity I decided to take a look at the commit and I was bewildered by code such as:


    %*pads{$*current-block} = {};
    for $ -> $statement {
        self.find-vars($statement, 'statement');
    }

    I mean, I can see the point in Perl 5 sigils. They're not pretty, but they're acceptable and they didn't bother me in these almost 10 years I've been programming in Perl.

    But

    • Thank you for writing your comment. You're fears of being a troll are quite unfounded. You're quite frank, and your intention is clearly not to cause ire but to air your own distress. Let me try to help allay it.

      It's nice to be the one putting some Perl 6 code in the way of a Perl 5 programmer with ten years of experience. I'm not surprised that your first reaction to twigils is one of slight... unease. Perl 6 syntax is different, and not just in minor details.

      Things look like line noise when you don't know

      • I think I understand the motivation behind the twigils. In other programming languages you can't immediately tell if a variable name is a local variable or an object attribute, for instance.

        And while I can't think of a better solution, twigils just don't seem to be the best solution to me. Maybe always requiring the object to be explicit is a better solution (e.g. $self.attribute). But then you'll hit me with a TIMTOWTDI hammer since that probably also works. :)

        I don't agree that "line-noise appearance" com

        • And while I can't think of a better solution, twigils just don't seem to be the best solution to me. Maybe always requiring the object to be explicit is a better solution (e.g. $self.attribute). But then you'll hit me with a TIMTOWTDI hammer since that probably also works. :)

          Sorta, kinda, yes and no. :) Even considering what you say in your self-counterattack, many people will use the twigils anyway. Especially if they're the recommended default. Which they are.

          But these are very specific situations and you can even argue that it's a feature - these constructs should only be used by those who know what they're doing.

          Hm. Twigils as a shibboleth for tricky features. ("You have unlocked the '*' twigil and can now use... contextuals!") Yes, I guess so. But I still maintain that they're not as spooky as you imply, especially not the OO ones. The twigils make them fittingly stand out as "almost, but not quite, ordinary variables".

          Trying t

          • Well, I just looked at the new periodic table and if by "gorgeous" you meant "scary", I agree with you. :)

            If you think about it, I guess this discussion wouldn't even exist if Perl 6 wasn't called Perl 6. This implies it's a successor of Perl 5 and thus, eventually, Perl 5 will be obsoleted by Perl 6.

            Being completely honest, what goes through my mind when I read about Perl 6 these days is something like: "Oh shit, I will need to go through all this madness sometime in the future when Perl 6 is completed".

            I

            • In the interests of mutual understanding, I tried to look at the periodic table (which is here [ozonehouse.com], by the way), and tried to instill a measure of fear in myself. The closest I got was "huh, that's quite a lot of them, isn't it?".

              I think one of the big dividing points between the Perl languages on the one hand and other programming languages on the other, is that Perl embraces complexity -- often quite fearlessly. Language designers are known to talk about minimalism and orthogonality. Perl, in contrast, seems

              • I've actually read all these these references before posting here. I don't usually actively participate in discussions, though.

                "Scary" was the least offensive adjective I could think of to express my general disapproval of it. "Batshit fucking insane" sounds more like my thoughts. :)

                Anyway, the whole periodic table of operators sounded novel when I first looked at it a few years ago. These days, I just feel like such things could be the last nail in the coffin for Perl in general.

                I'm a bit more optimistic l

                • I can relate to what you're saying about "Perl Survival Mode" and about Perl 6 getting in the way and creating negative PR for Perl 5 users in the business.

                  I wish I could do more to help counteract such negative effects. None of us can change the past, which does contain its fair share of failed dreams and dead ends for Perl 6. With a bit of luck, we can learn a bit from it, and find ways of working which do produce results, and not just important lessons.

                  From my perspective, Perl 6 is bringing important (if still reasonably modest) results lately, and it's the newfound confidence from those advances in the Perl 6 community, combined with the mostly independent revival of the Perl 5 community, that has led to debates like this one flaring up. I think they're a good sign, because we have to have them sooner or later.

                  Here's hoping for a future where Perl 5 stays strong, vital and vibrant, where Perl 6 makes up for the mishaps of the past to emerge as an interesting technology of its own, and where the members of those two communities manage to engage in fruitful exchanges and friendly competitions, all the while uniting against the petty criticism of outside detractors in a larger meta-community wherein it's recognized that deep similarities outweigh surface differences. :)