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sigzero (5768)

sigzero
  (email not shown publicly)

I am the proverbial "accidental" programmer. I have found that I really like Perl and programming so I am pursuing that route now. I am the Debian systems administrator and junior Perl programmer for a company called Inspire.

Journal of sigzero (5768)

Saturday August 29, 2009
10:02 AM

Perl6 site...really...I give up

[ #39552 ]

http://perl6.org/

I cannot tell you how painful it was to go to that site. Camelia? A buttefly?! WTF!

All the talk about modern Perl and nice looking web sites for Perl was lost on somebody apparently.

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  • I think the butterfly by itself is fine, and could be incorporated into a decent site design. However, the site as it stands is an absolutely horrible combination of over-saturated colors. I literally can't look at it because it hurts my eyes (not figuratively, it actually is painful).

          • Instead of relying on "they" to spend $100 to do a logo, how about you take your understanding of the design intent and spend the $100 to get a logo made? It would a fantastic help.
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    • If you have a better design, nothing stands in the way of your improvements.

      I certainly couldn't do a better design. I'm not a graphic designer and can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I know when I'm out of my element and wouldn't even attempt it. Would you say that precludes me from being able to voice that I like or dislike something?

      For example, I think the site looks unprofessional. Am I allowed to hold that opinion just because I couldn't do better or should I keep quiet?

      • I'll second that opinion and sentiment. It looks like a page a toddler would love except it made mine cry. I just thought it was a joke, until I noticed the furor here. It's not April, is it? YMMV. HTH. HAND.
      • About ten years of lost progress stand in the way of improvements.

        Are you really meaning to imply that there has been no progress on Perl (5 or 6) for the last ten years?

        Need I list the number of programming languages that came and went in that time?

        Yes, I think that would be very useful to me.

        Pm

            • To clarify: There has been a little bit of progress on perl 5, namely perl 5.10.

              Somehow I don't believe that Moose, DBIx::Class, Catalyst, etc. reasonably qualify as "a little bit of progress". I think they represent significant advancements. (And if I'm not mistaken, many of the ideas in Moose directly stem from concepts coming out of the design and implementation of Perl 6.)

              I also notice you have thus far not listed "any of the programming languages that have come and gone in [the past ten years]", pe

              • You are not mistaken. Moose draws on Perl 6 (and/or Perl 6's influences) for much of its feature set.

            • a project that should have been finished 8 years ago.

              On what do you base that timeline? Anything other than "That's what I would have liked?"

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                • Now I see the problem. You're conflating estimates from past project leaders with what "should" happen. This is an easy discrepancy to solve: Those past estimates were terribly wrong. Don't carry on the expectation that those estimates were correct or reasonable.

                  casuistics over what "stable" and "done" mean instead of committing to an actual release date.

                  If you can't define what "stable" and "done" are, then how can you expect an actual release date?

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                  • If you _could_ care less, that means you _do_ care. I think you _couldn't_ care less ;)

                • By reducing the scope drastically. Perl 6has been so extremely over-scoped from the beginning it's insane.

                  But then it wouldn't have been what Larry wanted for Perl 6.

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      • I cannot, however, fix the last 10 years of perl 6 debacle.

        So do you have anything useful to say, or are you just saying "GODDAMN THAT SUCKS WAH WAH WAH YOU ALL ARE DOODOOHEADS FOR WORKING ON IT," because really that's about all I'm seeing.

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          • drop this insane perl 6 thing immediately. Give us good, stable threading in perl 5 instead of self-hosting grammars in perl 6.

            See, now that's something we can address, if a bit obnoxious.

            Here's what you're missing: Perl 6 and "good stable threading in perl 5" are not mutually exclusive. It's not as if the people working on Perl 6 would necessarily working on your pet projects. Fact is, Perl 6 is not at all a distraction from Perl 5. If anything, it's feeding Perl 5.

            If you want improved threading i

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              • Let me insist: trying to build Perl 6 is less useful to real, practical perl than actually working on Perl 5.

                Let me write that more correctly for you:

                trying to build Perl 6 is less useful to me than actually working on Perl 5.

                Everyone's got different itches to scratch. It's all a matter of who's doing the scratching.

                You can't expect me to believe that the perl 6 team can't work on that.

                I don't think that you understand how open source projects work.

                People are not assigned to work on certain pro

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                  • You're stating your opinion. Opinions are neither true nor false. You find X to be more important than Y. Others disagree. That's how it goes.

                    The tragedy here is that you're trying to convince people to work on your concerns by bashing the work of others. I can guarantee you it won't work.

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                    • If anything, I'm a bit too blunt, but that's the way I am.

                      How's that workin' out for you, as far as bringing people around to your way of thinking?

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                  • You seem to be postulating an objective standard for something that is completely subjective.

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                    J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
              • ...since I believe those are major issues in perl 5 that should have priority over perl 6 work. You can't expect me to believe that the perl 6 team can't work on that.

                You seem to be operating from an assumption that most of us working on Perl 6 would instead be spending our time and energy on Perl 5 if Perl 6 didn't exist. The question is not whether we can work on Perl 5 major issues, the question is whether we'd be motivated to do so.

                I know that this assumption is not true in my case -- if I wasn't wo

          • Let me spell it out for you: drop this insane perl 6 thing immediately. Give us good, stable threading in perl 5 instead of self-hosting grammars in perl 6. Et cetera.

            Halting Perl 6 development today will not cause stable threading in Perl 5 to appear sooner than it otherwise would. Neither "stable threading in perl 5" nor the other features you've mentioned are blocked because of Perl 6 development. As far as I know, none of the existing Perl 6 developers are at all interested in working on these featu

              • Well, if I can help... I've given this issue some thought in the past and can put together a wishlist of what *I* think would be useful.

                Oh, that would be terrific! The ideal place for such ideas would be on the perl6-language mailing list. I will be honest up front that sometimes discussions and threads on that list quickly become bikesheds and messages get initially warnocked, but all of the thoughts and ideas that enter that list do get noticed and consideration from the core design team. Not everyth

                  • I have reconsidered, after reading where the logo came from, and how only a person or two gave the idea of getting professional help a second thought.

                    The discussion on the list is not the sum-total of all discussions on the topic -- it has also been discussed on IRC. Several more than two of us have floated the idea of using a professional designer -- we just didn't use the mailing list to suggest or discuss it.

                    And fwiw, I did get a professional designer to come up with the temporary logo for Rakudo.

                    Pm

                  • By which, do you mean the part about larry suggesting it feminizes Perl?

                    ... I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :)

                    I remain in utter awe of the whole thing....have the entire lot of folks gone off their meds or something? Women who survive in this business will not be seduced into thinking a language with a feminine butterfly must be a lot less full of assholes tha

                    • Well, I don't know that professionalism or a well-formed plan is always so needed, especially in the original spirit of opensource but, to anyone who thought P6 was, or has become, a joke by way of 8 years of design will not be dissuaded from that position by that site. It might even persuade many others who were merely neutral into thinking the language has reached it's comic endpoint.

                      And no, a man who can't confront the people who make perl an unfriendly misogynistic place will not get a pass with a fluff

          • This is carried on over at http://perlbuzz.com/2009/08/perl-6-development-does-not-detract-from-perl-5.html [perlbuzz.com]. It should help explain some of the misunderstandings.
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              • I didn't say "infinite" I said "unbounded." You have a scarcity point of view, and I see the world as abundance.

                You're ignoring the three points of the post, and carrying on the idea that if only Perl 6 didn't exist, you would have what you want in Perl 5. There is simply no reason to believe that.

                What I see here is someone who's just very angry, and that anger is all you can bring to the table. Rather than understand and accept the help from numerous people (me, Patrick Michaud, etc) who have tr

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