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rjbs (4671)

rjbs
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http://rjbs.manxome.org/
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I'm a Perl coder living in Bethlehem, PA and working Philadelphia. I'm a philosopher and theologan by training, but I was shocked to learn upon my graduation that these skills don't have many associated careers. Now I write code.

Journal of rjbs (4671)

Tuesday April 19, 2005
09:12 PM

habemus papam

[ #24284 ]

Today, the Church got a new pope. I'm waiting to see how it goes. I'm all for orthodoxy, but I know there's a lot of grumbling over the supression of free thought over the last twenty years. (Or, as the Church calls it, "heresy.")

Today on IRC, the election of the pope caused a lot of banter, which is to be expected. I also expected that lots of the banter would be irreverant, which I'm pretty used to. Why should I expect anyone revere the same things I do?

Sometimes, though, I'm surprised when the normal IRC tactlessness gives way to something that seems to me beyond the pale. Today, someone got into a pretty heated line of ranting about the church that included the line (and this is nearly the quote), "The Catholic Church is no different from the Nazi party."

There didn't seem to be any discussing the point, so I left.

Yesterday, I was feeling the same kind of awkward discomfort when people were praising Castro for "annoying the US." Meanwhile, I have family unable to express themselves in public or, say, buy milk.

One of the things that drove me away from #kuro5hin, some years ago, was the declaration that a DEA agent who had died accidentally while doing yardwork had "gotten what he deserved" and that the speaker was "totally happy" about it. This wasn't some specific agent, it was just a nameless person who had died unfortunately.

I'm all for IRC being brutish and crass, but I keep thinking that there's some underlying etiquette. I think I'm wrong.


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  • than anywhere else. And, really, people should be reminded of the crusades and the inquisition far more often than the Catholic Church currently allows as they were brutal, murderous thugs for almost 100 years. Killing entire races of people for a religion or for an ideology are not terribly different. As a recovering Catholic I can see how someone made that analogy.
    • IMO, people on IRC are a little more brazen, what with the anonymity and virtuality. The stiffest penalty for provocative banter is a /ban, /kick or whatever. IRL, that bar goes up with tarnishing true reputation or even physical /kick's.

      Peace,

      Jason
    • The difference is that the killing done by the Catholic Church was an anomaly in the history of Catholicism, and altogether antithetical to the modern and original views of the Catholic Church, unlike Nazism, which was founded on the views it killed people over.
      • I know better than to reply....100 years and the crusades before then were not entirely what I would call an anomaly any more than the rather unplanned manner in which the 'final solution' was arrived at by the Nazi's. Extremism tends to make people crazy, moreso when there's religion involved. Perhaps if Hitler had made the Nazi party a religion it might have lasted longer and been thought of us just an anomaly by now.

        • I know better than to reply, too, but I'm a fool. :)

          You seem to be accusing pudge of playing a word game with the word "anomaly," but you didn't really address his definition of the word, which seems to fit: the beginnings of the movement condemned that behavior, the moderns in the movement condemn that behavior, so apparently everything that is official within the movement other than the contemporaries back then state that the behavior was unjustified, unauthorized, and only claimed to be taken legitimat

          --
          J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
        • I know better than to reply

          You do?

          100 years and the crusades before then were not entirely what I would call an anomaly

          I realize you wouldn't, but you're hardly impartial.

          Extremism tends to make people crazy, moreso when there's religion involved.

          As evidenced by your extreme attacks on religion.
          • I never said I was impartial. But tell me how the Catholic church gets a pass as an 'anomaly' and forgiveness after centuries of killing people yet the Nazi get the scorn for being monsters. I don't necessarily attack religion, just churches like Catholicism with centuries of death and destruction in their wake.
            • But tell me how the Catholic church gets a pass as an 'anomaly' and forgiveness after centuries of killing people yet the Nazi get the scorn for being monsters.

              I already did. I said it, and then jdavidb reiterated it. So, for the third time: the actions you're referring to are absoultey antithetical to what it means to be a Catholic, what the church was founded on, and what we recognize as Catholicism today.

              And on the other hand, the Holocaust was perfectly in line with Nazism as it was founded, and wh

              • The catholic church was founded much like any other organized religion...it had no loftier goal than to spread their belief and, well before the reformation and the enlightenment, rule countries via leaders and cunning politics. The Nazi's did not run on a platform of killing the infirm, the insane, or genocide, but, then again, they didn't pretend to be on a mission of salvation either. You should read a bit about the Wansee meeting and how it came to be. You might also look into some of the allegations o

                • The catholic church was founded much like any other organized religion...it had no loftier goal than to spread their belief

                  A belief antithetical to what you are decrying, yes.

                  and, well before the reformation and the enlightenment, rule countries via leaders and cunning politics

                  Not at the formation of the church under Peter, no, it had no interest in such things.

                  You should read a bit about the Wansee meeting and how it came to be

                  You should read a bit about the Catholic church and how it came to be
                  • You are misreading what I'm saying and, instead, splitting hairs and introducing things that have nothing to do with the original point of this which was - that organized religion such as the Catholic church and the Nazis share enough in political machinations and killing people to be logically compared. Regardless of the illusion of founding ideals that have plagued so many political bodies such as the church or the nazis, killing those opposed has not been an unusal occurance throughout history and still
                    • You are misreading what I'm saying

                      Example?

                      organized religion such as the Catholic church and the Nazis share enough in political machinations and killing people to be logically compared

                      Only in the same way as the UK and the Nazis can be logically compared, which is not interesting.

                      I'm sure Peter wouldn't be all that approving of molesting little boys which, at least when I was in Catholic school, common

                      Can you honestly not understand the difference between something the church supported (e.g., the
      • I seriously doubt that the person that said

        "The Catholic Church is no different from the Nazi party."

        really cares about the views of the Catholic Church, their intents, or whether the Crusades were an "anomaly" (interesting word to describe 250 years of activity). They are most likely equally apathetic towards knowing about the Nazi party.

        Both groups killed large numbers of people using religous belief as a litmus test.

        If that is the criteria for comparison, then they are the same. (Some Jews call the

        • If that is the criteria for comparison, then they are the same. (Some Jews call the Crusades the "first holocost", if you are looking for more similarity.)

          Right, which is also why I said the UK is the same by that measure, and not just because of its involvement in the Crusades, though that in itself would be sufficient.

          The question is: what are we trying to say? I was making a similar point to yours on ziggy's journal about "blogs." People like to screw with definitions for the purpose of legitimizing

  • You know, I don't believe the Pope is the successor to Peter, and I don't believe he has any authority over me, and I do believe the men in that office and their subordinates have made blatant obvious changes to the tradition handed down by the apostles. But I do believe in giving decent respect to a man honored by millions. I did pray for those grieving the loss of the previous Pope, and there were public prayers offered to that effect at our church meetings, even though they agree with me about the theo

    --
    J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
    • I only have academic problems with the Catholic Church, as a unit. I disagree with it on many things, but nothing that matters in practical life. I've got the same goals they do, and as such, I am all for their health and have a more than a mere passing interest in their leadership, and I am encouraged that the Church decided to make a solid and deliberate stand for orthodoxy.

      Even if I were not a Christian, I would be heartened by the move. One of the greatest problems today is well-demonstrated by rjbs

      • it's not about being brutish and crass, but about rejecting orthodoxy, just because it is orthodoxy ... The Catholic Church represents authority and conservatism and orthodoxy; therefore, it is evil.

        Hmm. I think you are right, generally speaking. And I think suddenly I understand people just a little bit more.

        Like you, I'm encouraged to hear the Catholic Church stick to its guns on Orthodoxy, even on those issues I don't agree with. Even if it should mean they want to say that I am condemned for no

        --
        J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers
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