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pudge (1)

pudge
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I run this joint, see?

Journal of pudge (1)

Thursday February 03, 2005
01:04 PM

Re: As prevalent within as rejected outside

[ #22999 ]

TorgoX writes that what Bush is trying to do in Iraq will do poorly even if the Iraqis are lucky.

That's really really dumb.

No one knows what will happen, and as noted many times before, no one had any other solutions beyond "let's let the situation continue to fester with Hussein in power." We tried something, and by all indications it is going very well. Sure, you can point out some of the tragedies -- there are many -- that have occurred along the way, but these will not prevent the long-term goal from occurring. It's like saying a football team had a bad game because the QB threw a few interceptions: what matters is whether they win in the end.*

Oh, but because I believe this, I am probably not "persuaded by the facts." Yes, people who disagree with you are closed-minded. That's so original. And insipid.

The facts are these: Iraq is progressing about as well as anyone could have hoped. There have been problems, including too many civilian deaths, too many insurgents, and a rebuilding effort that has not been strong enough in some areas. There have been many good things too, such as Iraq doing quite well governing itself for more than six months and just recently having extraordinarily successful national elections (which were secured primarily by Iraqi police).

By all indications, the nation is well on its way to having its own entirely independent country, with new executives to be chosen soon, and a Constitution to be written by the new representatives, to be ratified later this year. Whether that will happen remains to be seen, of course, and there are a large number of obstacles along the way. But the naysayers are the same people who said a handover of power last summer could not work, and that elections in January could not work. Why should we believe them now?

Ah, but Iraqis are incapable of governing themselves. So this is doomed to failure. Is there a word for this that does not imply racial, ethnic, or religious bigotry? I am trying to think of one.

* And by the way, I couldn't care less about complaints about sports analogies in war. Our sports are simplified versions of war, in essence. And so when trying to simplify war for the sake of discussion, we naturally use something else we already have that is a simplification of war.

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  • Whatever is really happening in Iraq and whoever was right about the reasons the are some things that seem hard to deny.

    1. If there were WMD of any variety in Iraq they are now probably in the hands of people who are not much better that Hussein.
    2. The war in Iraq seems to have made large chunks of for want of a worse word old europe more anti Bush and probably more anti american now that he has been reelected.
    3. The failure to find any WMD leaves people with a bitter taste in their mouths about pre
    • If there were WMD of any variety in Iraq they are now probably in the hands of people who are not much better that Hussein.

      Sure. At worst, we are likely not much worse off. But I never supported the war because I thought WMD existed, this was never my priority, and it doesn't have much to do with my thoughts on the matter one way or another.

      The war in Iraq seems to have made large chunks of for want of a worse word old europe more anti Bush and probably more anti american now that he has been reelecte
  • TorgoX writes that what Bush is trying to do in Iraq will do poorly even if the Iraqis are lucky.

    I think that is is a very poor attribution.

    TorgoX may very well have the most posts in the journals, but he doesn't actully comment on a large portion of them. (Which isn't a slam in any way against his posting style.)

    In the post you link to, he makes no comment at all. He links to four different articles and it takes a bit of work to find out what, exactly you are referring to here.

    Because you are not ref
    • In the post you link to, he makes no comment at all ... Because you are not referring to something he actually wrote, but rather an article he linked to... ... I am safe to infer he agrees with the content, when it seems reasonable that he would. Which it does.
      • I am safe to infer he agrees with the content, when it seems reasonable that he would.

        I'll leave arguments of reasonableness to you.

        But you did not infer this, you claimed that he wrote it.

        He did not.

        I guess there isn't much more to say to make that point...
  • Iraq is progressing about as well as anyone could have hoped.

    Unless you were the guy responsible for the initial plan [rense.com].

    We used to play that game as kids. I would do something on my skateboard... it would go incredibly bad, then I'd say: "I meant to do that".

    Of course, it wasn't true.

    And, as this article notes [typepad.com] many of the people that actually had a clue about how it was really going to go down... they got fired.

    By all indications, the nation is well on its way to having its own entirely independent co
    • You're really boring.
      • You know thats the problem with the U.S.

        Kerry didn't get elected because he couldnt or refused to reduce complex moral, economic and military issues into happy chirpy apple-pie bullshit, unlike Bush who lied through his teeth to provide patriotic sounding soundbites.

        Why listlen when its boring - much better to believe that Saddam was a bad guy (in fact he is quite far down the list of bad guys, compared to dictators accross africa and asia) that needed to be removed from power, or that the iraqi opposit

        --

        @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
        print reverse @JAPH;
        • Kerry didn't get elected because he couldnt or refused to reduce complex moral, economic and military issues into happy chirpy apple-pie bullshit

          Keep deceiving yourself if you want your party to keep losing. Don't let me stop you.

          much better to believe that Saddam was a bad guy (in fact he is quite far down the list of bad guys, compared to dictators accross africa and asia) that needed to be removed from power

          Talk about simplistic bullshit!
  • Germany went through much the same after Hitler. Germany seems to be doing okay today. Granted there are a lot of differences but to say there is no precedence is not historically accurate.