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Journal of luqui (5770)

Wednesday November 16, 2005
06:41 PM

Today's Perl 6 Meeting Notes

[ #27605 ]

Luke:
        - hacking on Pugs a lot
        - getting more comfortable with its internals
        - now Haskell itself isn't an issue
        - I just have to get my brain around Autrijus's brain, which is difficult
        - but it's coming along
        - thought also about the laws of Perl 6 builtins a little bit
        - I can't come up with anything

Larry:
        - it's like trying to think up the laws of English

Luke:
        - reading "Types and Programming Languages"
        - how would you implement an inferencer for a purely predicative system
            like Theory?

Allison:
        - checked in TGE last week
        - that and refactoring and documentation took up my type last week
        - I missed the implementors meeting because I forgot about it
        - currently working on the AST in the Punie repository
        - using the tree grammar stuff there
        - I've just built up some node objects
        - building up a tree grammar to go from Punie PGE output to AST
        - the next step is nodes for the opcode syntax tree
        - another grammar to go from the AST to the OST
        - the last step is the little bit to compile the OST into Parrot
        - will probably do something similar to Leo's PAST prototype
        - it has the hooks for telling IMCC how to compile down a data structure

Larry:
        - I have a commit bit!
        - bright and shiny
        - I shall have to use it shortly
        - working on wreaking havoc on the Synopses this past week
        - Luke has been very helpful in getting me to clarify my thinking in
            places where it's too muddy
        - other than that, just a lot of infrastructural things
        - getting the latest Parrot things
        - now I have bleadparrot and bleadpugs and everything
        - I can actually contribute on that level
        - mostly I think I'll just be looking at tests and things
        - checking validity
        - also learning XSLT
        - mostly because I don't think a language that that's ugly should be
            able to do things that Perl can't
        - this fits into the tree transformation stuff
        - there are things it does better than attribute grammars
        - they seem not to handle lists of children well

Allison:
        - more toward named nodes

Larry:
        - that's something we have to fix
        - that's something XSLT does better

Luke:
        - attribute grammars aren't that good at looking around

Larry:
        - they're very constrained as to how you look around
        - there's some power in that

Luke:
        - have you seen CDuce?

Larry:
        - I haven't looked at it

Luke:
        - it has an interesting signature syntax

Larry:
        - now wait, I did look at it

Luke:
        - your list of predicate type signatures thing is reminiscent

Larry:
        - that was some of the grist
        - you're explicit about AND and OR in CDuce
        - I did look at that

c:
        - does XPath add better selectors to XSLT
        - or does it have better node selectors on its own?

Larry:
        - it's procedural, but more top-down

Luke:
        - sort of like a regular expression?

Larry:
        - yeah
        - sort of like a hierarchical SQL statement
        - we do need a better syntax than XML though
        - may take another whack at my Perl 5 -> Perl 5 thing
        - try to do that with XSLT instead of Perl

c:
        - that's what I tried to do a few years back
        - I learned that you can be right and still fail with bad code

Patrick:
        - primarily worked on S5
        - checked in the latest draft I sent out
        - it's not on the website yet

Jesse:
        - I believe Robert has a daily cron update

Patrick:
        - I'm happy to make corrections if anyone has comments

Larry:
        - you could make yourself the maintainer too

Damian:
        - I'm planning to send you some minor feedback

Patrick:
        - I also tried to reduce some redundancies
        - if I omitted anything, let me know
        - more updates to the grammar engine
        - now does lookbehinds, though it cheats for now
        - a variety of other small rules
        - mostly doing some internal Parrot things
        - driven by the desire to have Unicode work
        - better string escaping

Damian:
        - very good job on S5 too, by the way

Larry:
        - convenient, that he's the one implementing it

Patrick:
        - it's much easier to cut than it is to create

Larry:
        - for you, maybe
        - I'm too sentimental

Patrick:
        - give me a knife
        - I'm ruthless when it comes to prose

Luke:
        - speculating is too much fun

Patrick:
        - just catching up with other updates
        - continuing on with this path
        - one nice thing from the past week is the lexical stuff implementation
        - that's a big plus
        - it opens another door for me to continue pushing forward

Damian:
        - I've been busy
        - had the most appalling jetlag after I returned to Australia
        - this week I'm away teaching in Melbourne
        - next week too
        - earning a living gets in the way of *everything*
        - I have a whole backlog of postings to read and think about
        - especially from Larry
        - life stacks up while I'm traveling

c:
        - I poked at Parrot::Test a little bit
        - I'm stuck thinking about how to change STDOUT/STDERR

Jesse:
        - someone sent mail to TPF
        - an editor of the "For Dummies" books wants a date on Perl 6
        - Andy Lester asked me for completion or milestone dates
        - I've tended to stonewall on this
        - they're getting it cheap
        - we want it good
        - sticking dates on things won't do anyone any good
        - what do you think?

Allison:
        - that's what I've always said
        - we explicitly do not have scheduled dates
        - the editor in this case wanted to know if there'd be a release this year
            or next

Jesse:
        - that's sort of a "maybe"

Luke:
        - not *this* year

Allison:
        - I told her there may be a beta at the end of next year
        - she wanted to know if she should publish a book on it now
        - my answer is no

Jesse:
        - is there any way that fixing dates to anything might help you all out?

*not really*

Allison:
        - I work on the internal date of "as soon as possible"

Luke:
        - it seems that putting pressure on people in OSS projects tends to make
            them lose interest

Jesse:
        - I agree, but there are a few notable exceptions

Luke:
        - actually, when I have due dates for school, I work on Pugs!

c:
        - shave a yak, write Perl 6

Jesse:
        - is anyone blocking?
        - no answer makes my life better
        - okay, questions

Luke:
        - Patrick, Autrijus and I were talking about porting PGE to Perl 6
        - not for the fast side, but for the working side
        - supporting you get PGE stable, would you be interested in helping?

Patrick:
        - sure
        - it's stable now

Luke:
        - I thought so

Patrick:
        - you want a Perl 6 implementation?

Luke:
        - alternate runcores could use it then
        - even though it'd be slow

Patrick:
        - the biggest issue is being able to parse expressions into a match tree
        - I did the first version with a rec-descent parser
        - now it uses the precedence table which is much nicer
        - I'd have to look and see what it would take
        - I don't want to get sidetracked
        - but I can certainly help if you have questions

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