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Journal of luqui (5770)

Wednesday September 14, 2005
07:25 PM

Today's Perl 6 Meeting Notes

[ #26726 ]
Here are the notes from today's conference call.

Larry:
        - mostly thinking about the things Luke has sent out
        - stuff on the mailing lists
        - not much to report beyond what you've seen
        - read the Scala paper
        - my eyes glazed over in certain spots

Luke:
        - it's a little dense

Larry:
        - we have to find a different name than "data"
        - no, you can't have vertical bar
        - I think "data" is actively misleading to blue-collar people
        - it's a little more abstract than that
        - more like "a pattern of data"

Luke:
        - a structure... a struct!

Larry:
        - if you have a theory, then they're tenets, aren't they?

Luke:
        - mostly thinking about the things I've been sending out
        - started to implement some of the stuff I've proposed to see how it works
        - tried to start as Perl 5 modules
        - inevitably led me back to my type inferencer work
        - I want strong typing without verbosity
        - working on that again
        - trying to get an algorithm for type inferencing that doesn't require
            monotypes
        - (I think they're too restrictive)
        - it can check for errors
        - not sure how to make it faster with the information it has, but...
        - also think I used "theory" in two different ways in my post
        - parameterized theory is more like a role or a multi-parameter interface
        - the one from Scala is really more like a module
        - basically trying to figure out how you extend a module and what makes
            sense there

Larry:
        - and if you poke multis into a role can you put them into a module?
        - what we call them doesn't matter as much as what happens when you do
            things with them

Luke:
        - kind of want a global type for things
        - for multis
        - along with your operator-central language idea
        - if you have a global type for plus that says "These things have to
            implement the Num theory", then you can't override plus non-numerically
            without fixing the global type

Larry:
        - fits in with what Yuval was saying
        - have your cake with performance and extensibility at the same time in
            different lexical scopes
        - I'm in favor of both performance and extensibility

Luke:
        - who isn't, except for Java

Jesse:
        - Luke, you were going to do summaries for these calls
        - have you been doing that?

Luke:
        - I did it twice and sent it to not-Piers but he didn't include it, so I
            became lazy

Jesse:
        - if we want to make them publicly available, you might be able to post
            them to your use Perl; journal
        - it takes 30 seconds to make an account
        - we don't have to rely on the summarizers to include it
        - at least we're talking
        - seem to have managed to get the implementors in one virtual room weekly
            for the past four weeks or so
        - seemed to work best this past week
        - but there was a fairly large queue of questions built up
        - Chip, Patrick, Autrijus, Nick, Matt Diephouse, chromatic, Allison,
            myself
        - went through what people have done in the past week
        - more importantly, talking about what they're sticking on
        - mostly a result of having enough people say "I'm waiting for this from
            that person" that I had the audacity to try to get these people in one
            place
        - much of this week was Nick tying Chip down and asking question after
            question for Ponie
        - Patrick mentioned that S05 is out of date with the state of the universe

Larry:
        - I'm through S04 in the state of my revisions

Jesse:
        - someone suggested goading Damian into updating this
        - maybe it's you, Larry
        - maybe it's someone else

Allison:
        - at one point Damian said he'd do it
        - maybe check and see if he's still interested

Luke:
        - what about Patrick?

Allison:
        - he doesn't have time

Larry:
        - he's doing real work

Jesse:
        - he says that if it continues to bite him, he might just cope
        - he prefers that Damian, being responsible for the change proposal, do it
        - I'll harass Damian today (via e-mail)
        - I've sent out full transcripts of the sessions to sixperl
        - people wanted unedited logs instead of trimmed minutes
        - also talking to Nick about how to get Ponie moving faster
        - trying to get some parallelizable Ponie tasks
        - he feels that everything is on a critical path on what he needs to do
        - one thing other people can do is to get Parrot signals in the right
            place
        - it's hard to embed Parrot and expect signals to do the right thing
        - this needs a PDD
        - don't know if anything has happened in the past couple of weeks with
            Chip and contributing draft PDDs
        - seems something Ponie-related that someone who is not Nick could do

Allison:
        - is it possible to define someone to put up the templates?

Jesse:
        - I mailed Chip over the weekend
        - he's moving now
        - I'll give him a bit longer before prodding again
        - I don't know whether the wrong thing is wiki with authentication or
            Subversion access or what

Allison:
        - started hacking on an AST this weekend, written as Parrot objects

Luke:
        - then you have a good idea of what you want to do with trees

Allison:
        - yes
        - I hadn't yet read that message

Jesse:
        - did API changes come up at the London meet?
        - we've run into this with RT every month and a half
        - one of our dependencies changes its API
        - people install old versions of RT with old "stable" versions of
            dependencies

Larry:
        - the long-term solution is that the version number is part of the name

Jesse:
        - is there a medium-term solution that anyone has?

Jesse:
        - seriously considering branching CPAN for distribution as part of our
            tree
        - I did not say fork
        - we played with importing all of Backpan into an SVN repository
        - it suffers from the same problem that search does
        - it doesn't respect permissions on who can upload a module
        - ends up slightly smaller than the tarred distribution of all of the
            modules
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  • If you CC !(!Piers) he'll try and include 'em in the summaries he writes.
  • I've been aware that there is a weekly Perl 6 conference call for a long time now and have tried to find out what goes on during it. Thanks for actually writing it up!
  • For the record, at no time during my upgrade of Test::Inline to Test::Inline 2 did any API anywhere change.

    Those things you heard breaking were people's incorrect dependency specifications being whacked with the reality stick.

    There was no such thing as Test::Inline until 2.0 except an empty file with some POD in it...