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davorg (18)

davorg
  dave@dave.org.uk
http://dave.org.uk/
Yahoo! ID: daveorguk (Add User, Send Message)

Hacker, author, trainer

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Journal of davorg (18)

Tuesday November 12, 2002
03:55 AM

Less Sexism Please

[ #8891 ]

On the offchance that someone reads my journal and not TorgoX's or jdavidb's - please read HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux.

And then act on it.

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  • While I think the document is nice and hits a few important points, it cannot be universally applied as the scapegoat for why there aren't more women in computing and particularly in opensource. For years people around these parts have moaned and groaned about why there aren't more women, even Larry made a keynote including such desires for more women in Perl at YAPC this year...but you know, talk is cheap and when you say one thing but do another it's worth even less.

    Saying you want more women around th

    • I think the document actually touches on this issue, but maybe it's just too subtle. There is a bit about not being two-faced and only being respectful when you think you're being listened to.

      The problem here is that while _I_ think Randall is an immature twit for his obsession with Hooters, there's not much I can do about it except to say that publicly.

      I'm not sure what the best way to handle Randall is. I don't think we want to "kick him out" of the Perl community. I think the best way to handle it i
      • I'm not sure what the best way to handle Randall is. I don't think we want to "kick him out" of the Perl community. I think the best way to handle it is to make a point of challenging his sexism and not going along with it. He needs to understand that some lines of discussion just aren't acceptable.

        Kick him out?? That you would even suppose this might even possibly be a worthwhile course of direction is incredible. How about simply disagreeing with him, publicly if you feel it is necessary, and then get
        • Kick him out?? That you would even suppose this might even possibly be a worthwhile course of direction is incredible. How about simply disagreeing with him, publicly if you feel it is necessary, and then getting on with your own life?

          Uh, I wasn't supposing this was worthwhile or not. I was simply saying that it wasn't possible (and actually, I don't think it's the right response in this case).

          But what the heck, why not address the general question of how to "police" a community? If a community feels t
          • Uh, I wasn't supposing this was worthwhile or not. I was simply saying that it wasn't possible (and actually, I don't think it's the right response in this case).

            I won't apologize for reading I don't think we want to "kick him out" of the Perl community as a statement of it possibly being a course of action the community might take.

            But what the heck, why not address the general question of how to "police" a community?

            Because none of us has absolutely any authority to do so. And if we do, I'd bet you'
    • Saying you want more women around these parts while having one of the most publicly visible perl personalities going about praising Hooters is not a message to women that says you're in touch with your inner misogynistic asshole.

      I'm really more of a misogynist crank, if you have to label me, but anyone -- male or female -- who will judge a whole community based on the actions of one member is not going to be happy in any community.

      What would you recommend? (That's a serious question by the way.)

      • Well, perception is reality and considering that the most obvious example I mentioned is not only prominent but also at the entry gates where beginners wade in he has an effect whether anyone is willing to acknowledge it or not. It won't keep women from trying perl or using it but it most certainly helps to keep them out of social interactions. I've rarely had a female coworker and I can't count the number of times that the guys would plan a 'group outing' to a strip club or somesuch which I declined to go

  • To be honest, I have seen very very very little sexism in the IT workplace, and only a little in the perl community. I think the testosterone can get a bit much on IRC, but that occurs in because of the lack of feminine irc'ers not the other way around. Whats more, I don't see how blokes swooning over buffy or willow is sexist when women will behave in the same way over brad pitt or some hunky doctor in ER.

    You should not pick out merlyn just because he digs hooters bars, he doesn't make a big deal out of

    --

    @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
    print reverse @JAPH;
    • To be honest, I have seen very very very little sexism in the IT workplace, and only a little in the perl community.

      That's cause you're a man, and you can safely (and I mean that both as in comfort and physical safety) ignore it, and you no doubt just tune it out because it doesn't really affect you.

      I think the testosterone can get a bit much on IRC, but that occurs in because of the lack of feminine irc'ers not the other way around.

      So you think the attitude on IRC doesn't drive away women? And if wo
      • yeah, right - Of course I'd turn a blind eye. Bullshit, what kind of oaf do you think I am? Given the low number of women I'd notice if anything was going on anywhere near me.

        I sat next to 2 women when I worked at a global corporation, one was a senior project manager and the other was a senior developer and I spent a lot of time talking to both, at work and socially. The only other woman in the department was further away amongst some of the older developers. I never saw a sexist joke or act the 14 month

        --

        @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
        print reverse @JAPH;
        • yeah, right - Of course I'd turn a blind eye. Bullshit, what kind of oaf do you think I am? Given the low number of women I'd notice if anything was going on anywhere near me.

          I think you're a male kind of oaf, the kind that is created by a culture steeped in sexism to the point where despite our best intentions, some of our actions/views/whatever will nonetheless be sexist. This wasn't a particular dig at you. My point is that men are not necessarily going to notice things that offend/scare/bother women
          • I don't think my culture is steeped in sexism. There is a history of it, that doesn't mean that society is sexist, any more than society having a history of racism is racist, and I don't see anyone complaining about the absence of any particular race in IT.

            I don't believe that I have worked in atypical environments, or that I am blinkered from sexism. As I said before there is a lot more sexism in other industries yet they have a good mix of men and women - Look at any business studies class at college an

            --

            @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
            print reverse @JAPH;
            • I mean. I lost interest in trying to make the industry more attractive to women.

              I would much rather we lost the geeky nerdy image, but even after The Matrix, Blowfish and Hackers its seems to have stuck.

              At the same time I would rather work with people who are interested in the technology, the languages, the ideas involved in perl than the 9-5 people who only care about hacking code for a paycheck rather than because they find it rewarding in itself.

              --

              @JAPH = qw(Hacker Perl Another Just);
              print reverse @JAPH;