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darobin (1316)

darobin
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http://berjon.com/

Journal of darobin (1316)

Tuesday March 25, 2003
06:12 AM

Friends with the Python People

[ #11218 ]

Seeing that Perl and Python are the two most advanced languages when it comes to XML support, there is some thinking about how we could get the two communities to exchange ideas. Both sides have really good ideas here and there that could be ported both ways, or could have been specified jointly.

We could kick some jAss (Java Application Server System).

So what do you think would be the best way of going about this? I've been talking with Uche Ogbuji and we're looking for ideas. Any suggestion, even silly, is welcome :)

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  • I realised something similiar when I was looking at XML::Generator the other day. It's a really nice interface, but I think it'd be damned hard to do in Java because you don't have AUTOLOAD. You'd probably end up with a custom solution based on preprocessing DTDs, but it'd be far, far more effort to set up and get working.

    The flexibility of our languages is our advantage.

    -Dom

    • And that's exactly what would happen in Java or C#. You'd take an XML Schema and have it generate some code. .Net does that natively, Java has things like Castor for that purpose. It works rather well, but there's an extra step that we don't need :) (and we can choose to use something better than XML Schema).

      --

      -- Robin Berjon [berjon.com]

  • Good idea. Given that we can both use the excellent libxml2 and libxslt, it seems sensible to try and co-operate where we can. Just because I use Perl does not mean that I hate Python.

    In his column Environment, behavior, and scripting [infoworld.com], Jon Udell complains that many scripting languages use the same libraries, but provide widely differing interfaces to them, it hardly make sense.

    However to play the devil's advocate, sometimes a one interface fits all gives you a good fit no where, or as in DOM, something

    --
    -- "It's not magic, it's work..."
    • I've been going back and forth on the widely different interfaces thing. On the one hand, it's best for implementors to do what's idiomatic in their language. It makes life easier for users of that language. On the other hand, it's a pain for people like that have to change between languages frequently (I code against the DOM in three different languages). Remembering all the small differences between the languages is a pain. I used XML::LibXML for month with very few problems, then was stuck doing mostl

      --

      -- Robin Berjon [berjon.com]

  • Seems like testing would be an area where both could benefit from having reference implementations to test against.

    I've seen situations in the Perl community where people will advocate fixing a test to address what may, and may not, be ambiguous behavior rather than investigating the ambiguous behavior. Also, testing Perl programs against known output sometimes doesn't really exercise things, IMO.

    Perhaps a test suite where a dynamic web site (like a news site or Freshmeat or something) could be downloade

    • Testing is definitely an area of interest. I'm unsure as to how far we can go crossing language boundaries (though there could be a Test::Python built on Inline::Python that would produce the proper output...hmmm) but interop workshops are clearly good ways to spot bugs and under-specified areas in a spec (the longest and hardest discussions I've seen in the SVG WG stemmed from that sort of problem).

      I don't know if we could have something as generic as the website you describe since a lot of this i

      --

      -- Robin Berjon [berjon.com]

  • I'm all for it. I'm happy to find a meeting room at OSCON for a face-to-face. In fact, the Hackathon might be the perfect place to implement whatever you guys come up with. It runs from 9am Sunday to 9pm Monday. We'll provide whiteboards, wireless, and tables and chairs.

    --Nat