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chromatic (983)

chromatic
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Friday April 10, 2009
08:51 PM

Perl 6 Design Minutes for 01 April 2009

[ #38788 ]

The Perl 6 design team met by phone on 01 APril 2009. Allison, Patrick, Will, and Nicholas attended.

Patrick:

  • "I knew you were going to pick on me first..."
  • I worked on improving Perl 5 regular expression support in PGE, which enabled the :p5 modifier for regular expressions in Rakudo, which got us about 400-500 more passing tests. It's a cheap way of getting passing tests.
  • There are about 600 left, 1200 in total.
  • Also been answering questions online.
  • Today, working on improving Unicode handling in PGE and Rakudo.
  • The basic assumption is that ICU is available, and that we're doing the conversion there.
  • This will get another huge chunk of tests passing, that are waiting on that.
  • I started the PGE refactors, to catch up with Synopsis 5.
  • Ready for next set, which will bring in things such as protoregexps.

Will:

  • Nothing Perl 6ish.
  • Trying to help clean up docs in Parrot.
  • Realised today that I was doing it the wrong way, doing it manually, when we have a perfectly good tool to do it.
  • There's a macport for Parrot 1.0, which I can't take credit for, but it's out there.
  • I realize now that I need a devel version of it.
  • Hopefully with that I can get back onto partcl.

Allison:

  • Feel free to add the dev tools.

Will:

  • It's easier to update an existing package.

Allison:

  • Linux loves you to subdivide into lots of little packages. I don't think that other OSes go that far.

Will:

  • The trick will be to keep it as 1.0 but marked as updated.

Allison:

  • Parrot 1.0 packages are now in Debian, in unstable. Very nice.
  • Working on other packaging stuff, such as the the rpath problem.
  • There are a few more little pieces that I'd like to see done before submitting updated packages to Debian, such as pbc2exe and target=parse for the HLL compiler.

Patrick:

  • Note that that's getting a major refactor.

Allison:

  • We can't get that into an updated 1.0 release.
  • The patches for Data::Dumper from Barney, I'll see if I can get them in.

Allison:

  • Pycon was very productive.
  • Python was really really welcoming to the alternate implementation.
  • Lots of little things on Pynie. Ramping up to getting started.
  • Getting familiar with the implementation.

Patrick:

  • Larry's been found; he's at MIT, giving his talk in about 5 minutes' time. They've pasted a live URL on #perl6, plus video should be available afterwards.

Patrick:

  • My question relates to what was said on #parrotsketch.
  • Does Parrot need ICU?

Allison:

  • Question is, "does it need a deprecation cycle?"
  • In one sense, it's adding something, so no.
  • But it's removal of working without a package.
  • Is it a 2.0 thing?
  • We should put in a notice for 1.5.

Patrick:

  • Rakudo could say "if you want to run the spec tests, you need ICU".

Will:

  • Seems sane.

Patrick:

  • How do we stop false reports from people who don't have ICU?

Allison:

  • In your configure process, check Parrot config, see if ICU is installed.
  • If not, disable those tests. If you want to, don't even compile without it.

Patrick:

  • Disabling the tests is really tough, because they're spread thought the suite.

Allison:

  • Then make it a requirement for Rakudo and check very early.

Patrick:

  • It would be nice if there was an option to Parrot's Configure to say "Require ICU", else the only time we find out is after we've built Parrot.
  • There's --with-icu but that's to specify where to find ICU, not to mandate its use.

Allison:

  • For your process, because you already have the automated the pull down the parrot packages, can you add "pull down ICU"?

Patrick:

  • For ICU that's not trivial.

Allison:

  • Right now ICU is not required for Linux, because Parrot wouldn't build with ICU present on Linux a month ago (on AMD 64). Right now it's disabled. Once we get that resolved, the packaging will require ICU.
  • Having dependencies via the packaging system is really easy.

Patrick:

  • That still causes issues for people who are running Rakudo from other-than-prepackaged Parrot, which is the vast majority [of Rakudo users] for the foreseeable future.

Allison:

  • Adding dependencies [to Parrot] will move people to a packaged Parrot, as pain level of compiling [from source] becomes higher.

Patrick:

  • Agree, but not workable for Rakudo for 6 months.

Allison:

  • Okay, so we don't make it a requirement for 6 months.

Patrick:

  • That's okay for parrot, but where does Rakudo go? The options become "You have to live with the latest packaged parrot, which means you have to live without features X Y Z", or you have to build Parrot, and only then can it tell you that you don't have ICU.

Will:

  • Just have to configure, and then check that.

Patrick:

  • Right now, we just configure and make. Changing to "configure, check results, make" -- yes we can do that.
  • Have an option "I really don't want ICU", go ahead anyway.

Allison:

  • With appropriate warnings of "you will get some test failures"

Patrick:

  • Expect ICU support to be good, or mandatory as of 1.5?

Allison:

  • Not mandatory until 2.0. But 1.5 is when it's okay to start breaking things if ICU is not installed.

Patrick:

  • I wasn't planning to break stuff.

Allison:

  • That's how I think about deprecations.

Patrick:

  • Right now, you only get a problem if you try to do something that absolutely has to have ICU, at which point we throw an exception.
  • That works okay for PGE and PCT, but for Rakudo, we have thousands of tests.

Allison:

  • Because Perl 6 was designed for Unicode.

Patrick:

  • But also Pugs folks went overboard. I think in some cases they automated generating tests by raiding the Unicode database.
  • One checkin I'm working on today should get us another 1800.
  • We could get 10,000 this month.
  • I look at the graph of spec tests and our green is less than half of the total test suite. I want to fix that.
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