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chromatic (983)

chromatic
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http://wgz.org/chromatic/

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Thursday June 26, 2008
08:01 PM

Perl 6 Design Minutes for 11 June 2008

[ #36791 ]

The Perl 6 design team met by phone on 11 June 2008. Larry, Allison, Patrick, Jerry, Jesse, Nicholas, and chromatic attended.

Larry:

  • slowly improving
  • seems like I'm getting smarter, but appearances can be deceiving
  • my brain's not really back to a lot of spec work yet
  • continuing to refactor and debug the gimme5/STD5/cursor5 galaxy of pain
  • making progress on that
  • parses all of radix.t, though I'm not sure it's doing that correctly
  • starting to make progress on parsing STD.pm itself, though it's not getting far
  • hope to be able to parse most of STD.pm using STD.pm by my talk next week
  • my future plans are to switch over from using lists (which cannot easily be lazy in Perl 5) to using lazy scalar iterators
  • that'll probably make the produced Perl code look a little prettier too
  • unless your idea of prettiness is a lot of nested map statements
  • going to Chicago on Friday
  • giving a talk a week from tomorrow at Google in Chicago

Patrick:

  • things are going very well
  • Rakudo and PCT now support the return statement
  • hooks for the other types of exceptions implemented
  • have a version of fail implemented, but it fails in certain cases
  • want to clean that up

Larry:

  • it fails to fail?

Patrick:

  • it fails badly
  • mostly need to find where we did things the Parrot way and layer the Perl 6 way on there instead
  • fixing little bugs here and there to get more spectests running
  • wrote my own small version of Test::Harness to get the output results in a format that makes it easy for us to chart our progress
  • this one tells us how many we passed
  • running a test right now to find out where we were this morning
  • essentially, we're passing around 700 spec tests this week
  • last week we were passing 624
  • we may be quite a bit more than 700
  • all of this will show up in a journal post in the next day or two
  • writing code distracts me from journal posts, or vice versa
  • no other distractions
  • looking forward to YAPC and the hackathon
  • putting together a list of things to work on at the hackathon
  • one big thing is how people can help us with the spectests
  • doing more thinking about how to update PGE to do protoregexes and longest token matching
  • seems doable this summer
  • maybe between YAPC and OSCON
  • tomorrow is Jonathan's Rakudo day
  • we'll do lazy lists in Parrot

Jerry:

  • applied a few patches
  • answered some questions
  • we set up the Parrot Foundation, a new non-profit for supporting Parrot in specific
  • assigned directors, incorporated, set up a bank account, will announce at YAPC and OSCON
  • involved in the logistics of setting that up and so on
  • finalized the purchase of parrot.org
  • we'll put up a site there as soon as the domain transfer happens

Jesse:

  • what are you transferring over?

Jerry:

  • the Parrot milestone funds

Jesse:

  • are you getting your own infrastructure for this, or will it run on perl.org?

Jerry:

  • need to talk to TPF about that
  • just met with Auzon about the Perl 6 tests
  • have some questions for discussion
  • Kevin Tew's back on track with his project as well
  • fighting some PGE brainos
  • #parrot helped him move on
  • he can parse a 6000 line C++ header file in a minute and a half

c:

  • fixing some bugs
  • still working on the string system
  • made some improvements there
  • cleaned up some grotty code, more to go
  • might look at the string PDD after the hackathon
  • continue to mentor Andrew's GC work; he's on the right track and I have high confidence in him
  • helped Kevin profile his code
  • found some spots in PGE that could use optimization
  • Patrick could put in a couple of hours and get some improvements for everyone

Patrick:

  • I spent a couple of hours on that this morning
  • too much backtracking
  • found some other stuff I want to clean up in the process
  • we'll get more speed from longest-token matching though

c:

  • and a better garbage collector, Parrot-side
  • but a 20% improvement now is a good thing

Patrick:

  • also for people who aren't using protoregexes and such

Larry:

  • the xor problem is between whether you treat them as binaries or list precedence
  • do you think treating them as lists makes optimization more effective?
  • it's not the only thing in that precedence level
  • if we treated them all as list precedence, does that open up more general optimization improvements?
  • I'm getting the feeling that the answer is yes

Patrick:

  • PGE's issue is implementation
  • with eleven alternations, it stored ten backtracking points

Larry:

  • it's simpler to implement short-circuit logicals as binaries
  • implementing them as a list operator might not buy you anything
  • but they degrade to left-associative anyway, if the operator changes
  • I could change all of those left-associative ops to list-associative with no change in the binary case
  • I'm going back and forth on that for infix:xor
  • should they have the useless semantics of parity?
  • it's a tradeoff

Patrick:

  • if they were listops, I don't think we'd get that big an improvement
  • it wouldn't bother me if it were there
  • it's not hard to implement them that way

Larry:

  • the listop could implement them in terms as binary, if it wanted
  • that's fine

Patrick:

  • having the one sense would have been really handy

Larry:

  • you have an explicit one now, but that's just junctions

Patrick:

  • and it doesn't short-circuit

Larry:

  • if you have one that's true, tell me which one
  • that's probably more useful

Patrick:

  • I could do parity easily

Nicholas:

  • would be nice to restart the Perl 6 list summaries
  • the Perl 5 summaries have produced some productive work
  • David Landgren spends about a full day of work on the summaries every week
  • the Perl 6 lists have a bit more traffic combined than p5p

Jesse:

  • we've had trouble finding anyone interested in doing the summaries last time

Nicholas:

  • there's also the huge problem of trying to summarize IRC
  • David's reaction was "ugh"

Patrick:

  • I'll try this and report it in the next two weeks
  • I haven't been reporting on my progress as frequently as I'd like
  • weekly might be better, especially given our velocity
  • I prefer that someone else does the summaries
  • getting more people to participate is more important
  • and it's easier for someone involved to summarize than someone who isn't
  • I'll look for some interested people at YAPC
  • if that doesn't happen, I'll set aside a day a week to write a summary report

Jesse:

  • I'd happily pay in beer or whatever for that

Jerry:

  • conference season is a great time to find someone

Patrick:

  • if we don't, I'll make that one of my deliverables for my next grant, if I get one
  • one question from the SoC meeting before this
  • how do we handle design questions?
  • I feel badly dumping these on Larry, but I don't know where else to go for resolution of these things
  • what should my approach be?

Larry:

  • I treat p6l as a queue of things I ought to have thought about

Patrick:

  • I'll start posting to p6l then
  • I was thinking of p6c, but if p6l works better, I'll use that

Larry:

  • p6c tends to read to me like a lot of implementation things my eyes glaze over

Patrick:

  • we'll use p6l from now on

Larry:

  • you get a little more noise from the theory folks at times

Patrick:

  • if things still get Warnocked, I'll bring it up again

Larry:

  • that's one reason we have a weekly phone call

Jesse:

  • speaking of that, no phone call next week while everyone's at YAPC
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