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acme (189)

acme
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http://www.astray.com/
Leon Brocard (aka acme) is an orange-loving Perl eurohacker with many varied contributions to the Perl community, including the GraphViz module on the CPAN. YAPC::Europe was all his fault. He is still looking for a Perl Monger group he can start which begins with the letter 'D'.

Journal of acme (189)

Sunday March 03, 2002
09:29 AM

Simply Japanese

[ #3259 ]

Oops, forgot to mention that yesterday I cooked a quail egg, shitake mushroom and sugar snap peas stirfry (I really like quail eggs, and this was tasty) and marinated chicken (which she wanted us to grill, but I thought was much tastier done in a frying pan).

Yet another Perl-content-free journal entry...


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Simply Japanese 23 Comments More | Login | Reply /

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  • How comfortable does it make you feel to kill a chicken when you know that it did not want to die? On the other hand, there is no way to live without killing something... even washing and breathing kills bacteria.
    • As comfortable as I feel every day. We all "kill" things every single day of our lives, no matter how we live. Every animal does it. It's called survival. Bacteria is a very good example in point.

      (responding before pudge does ;-)
    • How do you know that it did not want to die? What are you, some sort of chicken whisperer? :-)
    • Eh?

      If you are seriously trying to get people to go vegetarian or vegan with that attitude please stop. I've been an animal rights activist for the past five years and people like just make my job harder.

      Getting in people's faces and shouting at them will not ever convince them to think about the (im)morality of what they're doing. It just turns them off because the style overwhelms the message.

      When it comes to activism, style _is_ important, and yours sucks.
      • I have a question, and I don't intend to have an argument about it, I just want to know your opinion on the matter.

        I have long been an advocate for humane treatment of animals. How does this differ from the advocacy for animal "rights," if at all? Is there any distinction, even a semantic one, for you?
        • Yes, there is a definite distinction.

          What you describe is animal "welfare", which is a good thing, but doesn't go far enough, I believe.

          Animal rights means that I believe that animals, just like humans, have inherent rights, simply because they exist and are "subjects of a life" (to use a Tom Regan's term for it). IOW, animals, like humans, are conscious critters.

          When we talk about human rights we usually mean things like freedom of speech, freedom from harm by others, freedom to travel, etc.

          Obviously
          • Some quick points that I don't want to argue specifically, but want to throw out there for your consideration:
            1. You may not need to eat animals, but I do. That is, I need to eat meat more than you (or I) need electricity, from my perspective. This really isn't up for debate, unless you take the absolutist perspective that we should never impinge on the rights of animals, which you say you don't. You have a certain set of criteria whereby you determine that some things require electricity, and you are u
            • In response to #1, you have no _biological_ need to eat meat. That's what I meant by need.

              But yes, I don't need electricity based on that definition of need either. I don't think I said that I did, though. I _want_ electricity and I think it can be gotten without causing any significant harm.

              1. You improperly frame the issue as animal suffering vs. human pleasure, while there may be neither suffering on their part nor pleasure on ours. I think mentioning either one does disservice to your cause, as t

              • I think meat can be gotten without significant harm. Further, I do have a biological need for meat, because I can't eat most vegetables, let alone those fake meat products. They taste bad. So if I don't eat meat, I won't be healthy, because I will be severely malnourished. I very much do have a biological need to eat meat, and you are incapable of reasonably saying that I don't.

                And I did not say they are incapable of suffering, I said they are incapable of experiencing what we know as suffering. They
                • I think meat can be gotten without significant harm. Further, I do have a biological need for meat, because I can't eat most vegetables, let alone those fake meat products. They taste bad. So if I don't eat meat, I won't be healthy, because I will be severely malnourished. I very much do have a biological need to eat meat, and you are incapable of reasonably saying that I don't.

                  Well, this is one of the sillier statements I've ever seen when debating animal rights issues. What can I say? I think you're
                  • I won't respond to most of what you say except two things:

                    I can't eat most vegetables because they taste really bad to me. It's that simple. Am I capable of digesting it? Yes. But incapable of eating it. My cat is the same with many foods she is capable of digesting. You think it's silly? Tough nuts. It's my taste buds I am protecting, not yours.

                    Second, this: "I believe that animals should be free from suffering, and that human interference leads to suffering for animals. That's my case." Fine.
                    • Oh, and about vegetables, I thought I might be able to take them intravenously, but I have this thing about needles; I could take a pill, but then I don't get the roughage I so desperately need. Bah! I'm stuck requiring meat. Bring on the cows, Little Billy!
                    • Its not illogical, it simply comes from a first principle which you disagree with. My first principle, as stated, was that human interference with animals is unethical. Therefore, when given a choice (which we always are in this particular case, regardless of your culinary tastes), we should make the ethical choice, which is to not interfere.

                      As to whether or not you have an obligation not to eat animals. Of course you have such an obligation. Why would you think I believe otherwise? Just because my no
                    • As to whether or not you have an obligation not to eat animals. Of course you have such an obligation. Why would you think I believe otherwise? Just because my notion of rights is arbitrary doesn't mean I think yours has any validity, nor would I expect you to feel any differently.

                      What you expect is nonsense. Once again, you expect me to think that you're an immoral sap just because you think I am. I'm sorry that I can't oblige you. I actually don't expect anything of the sort. I expect different thi
                    • You have a rather bizarre position.

                      I think that ethics are basically arbitrary at a certain level, as are pretty much all beliefs.

                      But just because I believe that doesn't change what I want from others. Look, I think killing a person is unethical. That's an arbitrary belief.

                      But it is something that most of the people in this country agree with, and so we have laws forbidding murder, right?

                      And most people consider that a good thing. In other words, one particular viewpoint has been forced on everybody.
                    • But just because I believe that doesn't change what I want from others. Look, I think killing a person is unethical. That's an arbitrary belief.

                      But it is something that most of the people in this country agree with, and so we have laws forbidding murder, right?

                      Nope! In actual fact, we have laws forbidding murder because we have codified in our country's law the idea that it is not arbitrarily unethical, but that it is absolutely unethical, that we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable righ
                    • Well, the fact that people decided this 200+ years ago based on what they thought doesn't make this any less arbitrary, does it? To illustrate: making a person of color property worth 3/5 as much as a white man is pretty arbitrary, but it was in the Constitution. (The fact that they used their religion to justify this doesn't make it any more or less true.) Fortunately, it was changed, too.

                      You're right that to compare in our law (as it stands right now) the killing of a an animal and a person is unreasona

                    • Well, the fact that people decided this 200+ years ago based on what they thought doesn't make this any less arbitrary, does it?

                      It does in the sense of why the law says murdering people is wrong, yes: in that it is not merely the opinion of a majority of people that makes it illegal, it is the very basis of our government that makes it so. If you take that away, then you take away the basis for the Constitution, which is to provide a government that exists to protect the rights of humans.

                      The Declaration
    • I'm very comfortable killing things. I'm French. This means that I'll kill and eat anything once. If it's tasty, I'll keep on doing it, otherwise I'll move on. For example, many people will testify seeing me eat worms. One particular delicacy is lamb's brains (dusted with flour and lightly fried), and my favourite restaurant in London (St. John) serves bone marrow. We must organise a "crazy mexican food" outing at TPC this year...
      • Speaking of France, SNL had a tremendously funny sketch last night showing George Bush talking about the Axis of Evil. He said that Enron is now included in the Axis of Evil, as well as Germany/Italy/Japan, Tom Daschle, Dick Cheney, and Evil Kneivel. Then he said, "and France has been upset over the Axis of Evil, so guess what, France? Now you're in it it. How do you like them apples? Next time you'll keep your mouth shut. Don't mess with Texas."
  • As comfortable as it does ripping a healthy head of lettuce from the ground, and then shredding and eating it while still technically alive. Just because it lacks muscles and a nervous system does not make it less alive.

    Things die so I can live. Someday I will die so other things can live. There's no way to avoid that. I do seek to use meat substitutes, but that's more of a fat-in-my-diet and water consumption issue.

    And if someone can point out to me that the water-consumption issue is invalid someh

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    You are what you think.
    • I can't resist.

      Yes, producing meat uses _way_ more water (and other resources) than producing plants.

      It's pretty simple. What do animals raised for food eat? The answer is plants.

      So let's say that with plant it takes 1 resource unit to produce 100 calories. A "resource unit" is my made up term for the water, soil, energy, etc required.

      Because of the inherent inefficiency in any conversion process (this is a law of physics), 100 calories of animal food might take 10 resource units to produce (actually
      • Thank you for the clarification! :) I had read actual numbers once some time back on the inside of a Moby CD, and took an educated guess that the numbers might not be exact but animals had to require much more water to construct. It had occurred to me that I might be able to construct a fairly detailed analysis of water consumption at each level, but I never got that far with it.

        As to your first two paragraphs, that head of lettuce has no nervous system. It's not whether things are alive that matters to

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        You are what you think.
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